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#727160 - 08/09/22 02:26 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: edshaw]
Registered: 06/11/20
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Originally Posted By: edshaw
I don't know how to add a .jpg to the comment.

You can click "File Manager" to add an image.
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#727161 - 08/09/22 03:50 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: Bass Thumper]
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Bass Thumper that is how you learn my friend. I have probably discarded as many failed experiments as I have posted songs. Well I shouldn't call them failed but more like learning exercises. BiaB is an excellent tool for investigating and learning new genres, scales, leads, etc.

It is fun learning with BiaB.
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#727167 - 08/09/22 04:24 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: MarioD]
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Originally Posted By: MarioD
BiaB is an excellent tool for investigating and learning new genres, scales, leads, etc.

Ever watch Bob Ross on PBS with his Titanium White, Yellow Ochre and Van Dyke Brown immediately available on his palette?

Well I look at BiaB as the painter's palette for the ammeteur or pro musician. I can dab a little Asus, some B and some Bsus on my brush and paint it on my canvas . . . cooler than cool. Especially when you consider what would be involved in bringing live people together each time you want to explore something.

. . . OK, just had idea involving Prussian Blue smile . . .
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#727284 - 08/10/22 06:09 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: Bass Thumper]
Registered: 10/09/16
Posts: 1501
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edshaw Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bass Thumper
BiaB is an excellent tool for investigating and learning new genres, scales, leads, etc.


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#727310 - 08/11/22 03:18 AM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: Bass Thumper]
Registered: 04/13/16
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rayc Offline
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When I started writing songs it was on bass guitar. I'd sort out where the bass went, the lyrics and a vague melody. A friend would match the bass with chords he liked. After I learnt an half dozen chords I played the ones I could to match the bass. When I learnt a few more chords...basically nine...I'd sketch with guitar & add bass. I learnt them becasue they were simple...Em, Am, G, D, Dm, C, Bm, F & Fm. No sharps or flats obviously and the were, for the most part, simplified three note versions of the chords. I knew nothing of keys, 5ths etc. so winged it and came up with some okay songs. A little later by ear I worked out variations of those chords and came up with things like Am7 -> D -> Dm -> Am -> C -> Em -> then A2 "resolving" to Am as the base for a song. Those any many other variations stood me in good stead until I found I needed to sing my own songs through lack of singers willing to do so - I was helped to find that A was the key for my voice, weak, thin & limited and I learnt the extra chords necessary to accommodate that, (mainly taking the open F & D shapes then moving them up n down the fret board.
With BIAB it's even easier to add nice chords to a bass progression. Work out the bass, drop what you think are the roots into the chart bars and then tweak the chords to taste. Don't feel you HAVE to follow the theory stuff...if you like where your bass is going work from it...here's more freedom that way.
I was willing to do that slow evolution across almost 50 years but I can understand someone being too impatient for that.
Enjoy the learning.


Edited by rayc (08/11/22 03:29 AM)
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#727322 - 08/11/22 06:29 AM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: rayc]
Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 18101
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MarioD Offline
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Originally Posted By: rayc
.................. Don't feel you HAVE to follow the theory stuff...if you like where your bass is going work from it...here's more freedom that way.
............................
Enjoy the learning.


I have always told my student "learn theory but don't let it get in the way of your playing. If you can't play from your heart you can't play."

Learn theory so you can practice scales, chords, etc as that will improve your play ability and possible widen your horizon; BiaB does a great job on all of that.
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#727327 - 08/11/22 07:44 AM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: rayc]
Registered: 06/11/20
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Originally Posted By: rayc
Enjoy the learning.

That's exactly what I'm doing Ray.

And thanks for sharing a little about your journey and song writing methods. Everyone's journey is unique.
Mine started less than 7 years ago (just a fraction of your 50) when I bought my bass and a practice amp. I then started watching YouTubes on bass instruction and bought a Hal Leonard book or two. Then a couple years ago bought the entry-level version of BiaB. This allowed me to jam along with very simple backing tracks that I could create. Along the way I discovered the Ultimate Guitar website for chord sheets and then learned how to download popular songs (audio) so that I could practice them via the chord sheets. This then forced me to teach myself how to transpose since the chord sheets and audio files don't always align in the same key. Then Audacity allowed me to record myself which allowed me to better critique my playing. Studio One came along this year.

Regarding music theory. For years I noticed that rhythmically bouncing from the root to the 5th was pleasing to the ear. One of the things that the theory has given me is a partial understanding of why this is . . . the Circle of Fifths. So for grins a couple days ago, I constructed a BiaB Circle of Fifths "song" that walks around the circle from 12 O'clock to 12 O'clock. This is giving me insight I didn't have before. I believe if you run the circle backwards you move in steps of 4ths. It may be true that knowing theory is not required to play or write music, but I'm finding that the more theory I know the better. It's somehow comforting to know that musical genius' going back hundreds of years put together a coherent body of knowledge that the rest of us can take advantage of. And I'm sensing that this knowledge might be somehow based in mathematics; perhaps the purest and most useful tool man has devised.


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For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the melody world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.

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#727371 - 08/11/22 04:33 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: Bass Thumper]
Registered: 08/29/14
Posts: 6547
Loc: North Carolina
David Snyder Offline
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My Alter Ego Tater Totts posted a song called Circle of Fifths as a joke some years ago using the same trick.

smile

https://soundcloud.com/tater-totts-radio/circle-of-fifths

Circle of Fifths
By David Snyder

Performed by the Legendary Tater Totts

CH

Got a circle of fifths
Around the front yard
Got a circle of empty fifths
Around the back yard too
I’ll keep going around this
Circle of fifths
Until I drink my mind
Off of you
Got a Circle of Fifths
In every room in the house
And baby it’s the best that I can do
And I’ll keep going around this
Circle of fifths
Until I drink my mind of you

V1

Well I flunked out of school in the first grade
Cause I still couldn’t add
2 plus 2
But I didn’t need no schoolin’ that much anyways
I never got the hang of sniffing glue
But I reckon there’s good money money made in truckin’
Til you pull into the truck stop from hell
That’s where I met you
It was my first mistake
Cause I could smell the liquor in your hair

V2

Well I only got one question ‘bout the liquor stores
What time do they open in your town
You know I got to get there
Early as I can
Cause there’s a woman that kicked my heart around
I should have known when I pulled into that truck stop
I should have known when I kissed her
And got a whiff of that smell
I should have known that that woman was the devil
And she would drag me right straight down into hell

CH

Got a circle of fifths
Around the front yard
Got a circle of empty fifths
Around the back yard too
I’ll keep going around this
Circle of fifths
Until I drink my mind
Off of you
Got a Circle of Fifths
In every room in the house
And baby it’s the best that I can do
And I’ll keep going around this
Circle of fifths
Until I drink my mind of you

All Words and Music copyright 2018 by David Snyder

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#727377 - 08/11/22 05:18 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: David Snyder]
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Originally Posted By: David Snyder
My Alter Ego Tater Totts posted a song called Circle of Fifths as a joke some years ago using the same trick.

Do great minds really think alike? crazy
Very clever . . .
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For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the melody world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.

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#727438 - 08/12/22 09:21 AM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: Bass Thumper]
Registered: 01/15/15
Posts: 1116
Loc: Hampshire, UK
Gordon Scott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bass Thumper
So for grins a couple days ago, I constructed a BiaB Circle of Fifths "song" that walks around the circle from 12 O'clock to 12 O'clock.

I do something similar, though as I'm jazz-oriented I tend to use a ii-V7-I-I sequence, on the next bar, changing the I to the minor as my new ii, so I get something like this (starting in C):
Dm-G7-CMaj7-CMaj7
Cm-A7-BbMaj7-BbMaj7
Bbm...

It's particularly helpful for me as jazz tends often to follow that progression, though it will almost always break away from that somewhere.

For other types of music, a mix of I IV V or I IV V vi might be better.

Don't complicate unnecessarily, though. Don't think I'm saying "you should do this!" ... it's just somthing to think about and maybe try.

FWIW, I also quite often just improvise to standard or minor blues loop. Less thinking about the progression means more relaxed and, hopefully, more fluid and expressive.
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#727566 - 08/13/22 09:08 AM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: Gordon Scott]
Registered: 06/11/20
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Originally Posted By: Gordon Scott
I do something similar, though as I'm jazz-oriented I tend to use a ii-V7-I-I sequence

As time permits I'll try to explore some of these jazz chord progressions as (thanks to my Matt Finley Pandora station) I'm appreciating jazz more and more.

The "newbies book" is really providing a good grounding that was heretofore, missing in my knowledge.
Page 8:
From what historians can tell, by the time the ancient world was beginning to establish itself - approximately 7000 B.C. - musical instruments had already achieved a complexity in design that would be carried all the way into the present.

Many people consider ancient Greece to be the actual birthplace of music theory, because the ancient Greeks started entire schools of philosophy and science built around dissecting every aspect of music that was known then.

. . . Wait a minute! This can't be a real caveman band. Where's the bass player???


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Edited by Bass Thumper (08/13/22 09:57 AM)
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For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the melody world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.

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#727572 - 08/13/22 10:50 AM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: Bass Thumper]
Registered: 01/15/15
Posts: 1116
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Gordon Scott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bass Thumper
Many people consider ancient Greece to be the actual birthplace of music theory, because the ancient Greeks started entire schools of philosophy and science built around dissecting every aspect of music that was known then.

Pythagoras, of course, defined the musical scale in a mathematical way, but in practice, the mathematical way doesn't actually sound right, so the scale has been tweaked a little, several times, so that it does sound right.

I once said something to someone about the "perfect fifth". His reply was there was no such thing, which made us both laugh due to those tweaks. Of course there actually is a perfect fifth, but it isn't quite what we actually play.

Curious.
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#727658 - 08/14/22 01:01 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: Gordon Scott]
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Originally Posted By: Gordon Scott
Pythagoras, of course, defined the musical scale in a mathematical way

Ahhh, Mr. Pythagoras of hypotenuse fame. Not to be hyperbolic but he didn’t engage in hyper-hyphenated hyperbole as far as I can tell. smile

But to hydroplane back to music theory, page 77 has an interesting statement:
We could write an entire encyclopedia on the different types of scales used in music from around the world , but because this book is primarily concerned with the Western tradition of music, we confine our discussion in this chapter to the two most frequently used scales: the major and minor.

Even if “an entire encyclopedia” is an exaggeration, this tells me that this body of knowledge is huge.
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For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the melody world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.

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#727667 - 08/14/22 02:54 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: Bass Thumper]
Registered: 01/15/15
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Gordon Scott Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bass Thumper
Even if “an entire encyclopedia” is an exaggeration, this tells me that this body of knowledge is huge.
... and yet ... I remain fascinated by Bobby McFerrin's demonstration of the pentatonic scale.
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#727719 - 08/15/22 10:59 AM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: Bass Thumper]
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That is an exaggeration. The various modes and scales in Western music don’t take an encyclopedia. By that, I am not saying it’s the easiest thing to learn.
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#727724 - 08/15/22 11:41 AM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: Bass Thumper]
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Jim Fogle Offline
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+++ How Many Scales Are There In Music? +++

Quote:
The short answer is that there are 48 total major and minor scales. The long answer? It could be more than 200, more than 25,000 or infinity depending on the definition.
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#727728 - 08/15/22 12:22 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: edshaw]
Registered: 06/11/20
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Originally Posted By: edshaw
Originally Posted By: Bass Thumper
BiaB is an excellent tool for investigating and learning new genres, scales, leads, etc.

Ed, depending on how accurate you may want the footnotes to be in your "Minor Scale" chart, pages 83-88 talks about 3 types of minor scales, natural, harmonic and melodic. They are all different. I think your footnote is referring to the natural minor scale.
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For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the melody world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.

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#727732 - 08/15/22 12:46 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: Jim Fogle]
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Originally Posted By: Jim Fogle
The short answer is that there are 48 total major and minor scales. The long answer? It could be more than 200, more than 25,000 or infinity depending on the definition.

Jim, in my searches I also came across that exact quote. FWIW, infinity to me sounds like it's based on a very non-useful definition (for musicians) of what a scale is.

Here is an interesting and quite bold quote I found.

There are 2048 scales in music, no more, no less. 12 of them are intervals (scales with only two notes), and 344 of the other 2036 scales are source scales”

And these people have built an encyclopedia.
https://mdecksmusic.com/2020/01/25/a-universal-encyclopedia-of-scales/

Somewhere at this site look for a video that rapidly scrolls thru each one. You need to be "Data" on Star Trek to absorb it all but it's fun to watch and think about.

Obviously, I'm way out of my league on this subject but I'd guess that if we talk about the number of practical and useful scales for musicians (worldwide), that the number is even fewer than 2048.
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BiaB 2022 Windows
For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the melody world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.

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#727742 - 08/15/22 03:28 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: Bass Thumper]
Registered: 10/09/16
Posts: 1501
Loc: Central Ohio
edshaw Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bass Thumper
Originally Posted By: edshaw
Originally Posted By: Bass Thumper
BiaB is an excellent tool for investigating and learning new genres, scales, leads, etc.

Ed, depending on how accurate you may want the footnotes to be in your "Minor Scale" chart, pages 83-88 talks about 3 types of minor scales, natural, harmonic and melodic. They are all different. I think your footnote is referring to the natural minor scale.


Thanks for that important piece of information, Bass Thumper.
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#727752 - 08/15/22 04:12 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: Circle of 5ths [Re: edshaw]
Registered: 12/27/03
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MarioD Offline
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FYI - In my guitar scales book it list 17 scales one should know about:
1-Major scale (Ionian Mode)
2-Major pentatonic
3-Natural minor scale (Aeolian mode)
4-Minor pentatonic
5-Blues scale
6-Mixo-blues scale
7-Mixolydian mode
8-Dorina mode
9-Melodic minor scale
10-Harmonic minor scale
11-Phrygian mode
12-Locrain mode
13-Lydian mode
14-Dimnished scale (half - whole)
15-Diminished scale (whole-half)
16-Chromatic scale
17-Whole tone scale
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