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nonchai Offline OP
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This suggestion is for BIAB to be able to record ( live ) Yamaha XF chord data as well as interpret the chords and convert to BIAB chords.

This is for YAMAHA arrangers. It would be so useful to be able to use BIAB to send data to arrangers like the GENOS and PSR series. The built in facilities in these are really for performance but recent models sound really good and I find my PSR SX 900 ver inspiring for coming up with improvised chord changes on the fly. The built in CHORD LOOPER feature though is very very basic and one cannot edit or import the chord progressions once recorded. Very much an afterthought on owner suggestions.

So to be able to record this data as well as import song and CHORD BANK data into BIAB and export as well when needed would be so helpful.

It would allow users to compose pieces on the hardware arranger OR in BIAB - and use both as tools.

A typical scenario might be to record chord ideas via the left hand in the arranger into BIAB in order to edit - then maybe export back to the PSR to play around with styles on it - and eventually maybe switch to using BIAB styles in BIAB itself or in a DAW via the BIAB plugin.

others have touched upon this

https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=487473


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Have a look here and see if there's anything that may help:

https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=466834#Post466834

http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/more_software.htm

https://www.heikoplate.de/xftool-manual.html

https://www.heikoplate.de/psruti.html

What you need is for Biab to load all the data for each track in a Style then it can playback the chords inputted by the keyboard live the same way Sforzando is here:
Live Arranger Demo

The same way the BBPlugin can generate and play instantly:

Playing 4 style tracks same as in Biab, same sections.
So each track's WAV Instructions txt were converted into SFZ txt.
This is playing the source files direct, no waiting for renders.

Watch: https://www.dropbox.com/s/w91dqq7dcnaluyd/BB-Track-Data-To-SFZ-4-Tracks.mp4?dl=0

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nonchai Offline OP
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thanks for that - unfortunately ive been down that road and nothing exists like the feature I am suggesting in BIAB


and at the end of day I just want this added to BIAB and not have to rely on free user made apps. Plus the vast majority turn out to only run on windows and im a Mac guy - but ive tried many using parallels too


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There is JJazzLabMac that will open Biab SGU/MGU and use YAMAHA Styles.
Other than that just hope PG implements.

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Looking back I found this asking for XF export
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=6026

I looked at a midi file with the XF chords
PSRUTI Chord and Lyric Protocol
File: C:\Users\Band In A Box\Downloads\test.mid

[start chords+lyrics]
Chd 002:01:000 Bb
Chd 002:03:000 Fm7
Chd 003:01:000 Ab7
Chd 003:03:000 C#M7
Chd 004:01:000 Ebm
Chd 004:03:000 F7
Chd 005:01:000 Bbm
Chd 006:01:000 A#
Chd 006:03:000 A#
[end list]

If I can find these in the Midi file I can read them out or write them to.
I can read this info in Reaper and then I could record or write to midi.
This way I could send the XF chords to the keyboard while using the BBPlugin. The BBPlugin can transfer it's chords to Reaper and vice versa.
PG writes it's chords to the midi file like Yamaha, I just need to find where Yamaha writes them in the midi file.
I don't know if that's like what you want to do ?

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Yamaha-XF-Chords.png (5.42 KB, 111 downloads)
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https://github.com/HeikoPlate/psruti
I think the Chd.cpp has the info so PG should be able to add that.

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Yes, good ideas and info. Thanks


Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.
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nonchai Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: PeterGannon
Yes, good ideas and info. Thanks


Hi Pete!

great to see your support here- and very recent too!

It would be so cool to see synergy between modern ( ie Genos Generation say - ) Yamaha arrangers and BIAB

I have both clearly - but I really enjoy and am inspired by the immediacy of hardware arrangers such as Genos.

I bought one not at all for one-man-band live performance use ( the default use case of Course ) but as a way of getting inspiring ideas and sounds quickly from just fingering in the chords in left hand and then soloing and noodling OR actually composing a melody in the right hand.


But currently the Genos range AND even latest KORG PA 5 - actually fall short in many ways for composer use - which is where maybe BIAB could come in...

Some of the ways of adding seamless synergy would be:

1 ) introduce a Yamaha Genos family sound set - into BIAB which could then be used in conjunction with. Currently I see no plugin or sound module type app that allows sound sets ( say in sound fonts ) to be created that support fully the LSB+MSB CC data for Genos etc.. Which go even further these days ( in proprietary manner ) than XG, GS or GM2.. ( and sadly BANDSTAND IS NO MORE anyway frown )

2 ) ability to load Yamaha Styles and play them - as maybe an initial starter demo thing for an idea

and then if necessary switch to BIAB styles..

3) Be able to export GENOS/PSR SX CHORD LOOPER banks or bank from a BIAB chord progression ( currently the Genos family is very basic and limited for inputting ( recording LIVE ) chord progressions - because they cant be edited.

Daft.

4) allow import and export and playback of MIDI songs created in Yamaha XF format..

Also - currently none of the arrangers have USB AUDIO outputs for tracks - ie no output DAC over USB - unlike so many workstation arrangers these days -

BIAB could help maybe fill a gap here.

Of course the other thing would be to be able to easily move BIAB songs to Cubase -

But then even Cubase 12 doesnt have perfect of complete synergy ( "composer workstation" wise ) with Genos etc..

Its all a parsons egg.

Last edited by nonchai; 04/06/23 08:55 AM.

Big Sur, Mac Mini i7 2018, 64GB RAM 2TB SSD
Yamaha PSR SX 900, Cubase, Ableton, UNIFY, OPUS ORCHESTRATOR, MASCHINE, Vienna Ensemble Pro ,Audiofuse, L6 HELI, KOMPLETE, Komplete Kontrol 88
Lockdown beard, podgy face, beer belly, bald patch ... yadda yadda
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Originally Posted By: musocity
There is JJazzLabMac that will open Biab SGU/MGU and use YAMAHA Styles.
Other than that just hope PG implements.



Thanks for this info I'll check this out.

im also looking at GIGLAD - written in JUCE and cross platform too ( but no internal sound set - just sends MIDI )

Last edited by nonchai; 04/06/23 08:59 AM.

Big Sur, Mac Mini i7 2018, 64GB RAM 2TB SSD
Yamaha PSR SX 900, Cubase, Ableton, UNIFY, OPUS ORCHESTRATOR, MASCHINE, Vienna Ensemble Pro ,Audiofuse, L6 HELI, KOMPLETE, Komplete Kontrol 88
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nonchai Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: musocity
There is JJazzLabMac that will open Biab SGU/MGU and use YAMAHA Styles.
Other than that just hope PG implements.


Can JAZZLAB export the chord changes to - say - jazz standards - in the new Genos/PSR SX CHORD LOOPER BANK file format?

It would be a great way of getting those arrangers to play changes via the CHORD LOOPER feature - and then have fun and inspiration etc trying out the progression in different styles while soloing or noodling.


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Originally Posted By: nonchai
im also looking at GIGLAD - written in JUCE and cross platform too ( but no internal sound set - just sends MIDI )

Thanks that looks good I will go try it out, so Biab should be able to send midi chords to that and if you want the audio in Biab it can send back via the VST3 that you would need
VST3Shell or Element

I will ask in the JazzLab forum about implementing the XF Chords.

I have been trying to get PG to create an Live Arranger the same way they are doing it, all the testing I have done it just all works so easy.
And JUCE, I have been trying to get PG to go that way also to get the same Main app and Plugin released at the same time on Win and Mac.
I think the BBPlugin and it's standalone will go this way as Adar uses JUCE for it. That's why I recommended the Plugin Standalone for the Live Arranger released at the same time on Win and Mac.

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nonchai Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: musocity
Originally Posted By: nonchai
im also looking at GIGLAD - written in JUCE and cross platform too ( but no internal sound set - just sends MIDI )


I have been trying to get PG to create an Live Arranger the same way they are doing it, all the testing I have done it just all works so easy.
And JUCE, I have been trying to get PG to go that way also to get the same Main app and Plugin released at the same time on Win and Mac.
I think the BBPlugin and it's standalone will go this way as Adar uses JUCE for it. That's why I recommended the Plugin Standalone for the Live Arranger released at the same time on Win and Mac.


I concur about JUCE - I imagine the PG team would love to be able to go all-out on JUCE but sadly suspect the amount of legacy code might/is making that impossible or a very slow project - like how you eat an elephant - in very small bites over a long period of time..

For me the Live-arranger functionality I have in mind ( ie being able to use the typical chord fingering techniques in the left hand found in HW arrangers ) isnt for live performance though - the degree of reliability means BIAB would never reach that bar - but for me its for composition.

I find on my PSR SX 900 that just experimenting with improvised chord progressions - recording them into the Chord Looper ( found on the SX 900 and GENOS ) is such fun - and just something that one doesnt get when typing in chord progressions.

I want the best of both worlds really -

Namely the detail, edibility and realism of BIAB when creating and generating songs - coupled with the huge immediacy of hardware arrangers. where one sacrifices realism ( whether real tracks audio or the best software plugin sample libraries ) for the instant response - no waiting.

its all about workflow and mojo !

Wile talking about the benefits of hardware arrangers - sadly - currently - none of them are really any good for actual composition. Even when the top end arrangers like GENOS are advertised as "Workstations" they really aren't at all - and the sequencers and user interfaces in them are ultra basic - and mostly dont even have a piano roll GUI.

But then again even proper Workstation keyboards dont come close imo to being useful as even starter vehicle for composition- that is with the eventual destination for ones composed content being a DAW....

the one which in my mind seems to come closest is the recent FANTOM range.

But now we're off topic..

Last edited by nonchai; 09/13/23 02:27 PM.

Big Sur, Mac Mini i7 2018, 64GB RAM 2TB SSD
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Hopefully PG should add the XF support soon.
You now have as I said you would, keyboards with Real Tracks and Real Drums in audio format.
PG should not be far behind with their live arranger hopefully,
as you will also have the new Plugin that will work in a similar way soon to give instant gen/play (no creativity killing anymore):
Originally Posted By: PeterGannon
>MusoCity: If you could do the same in Biab/RealBand/Plugin as I can do in Reaper with the track sections it will further improve Biab to allow for more creativity control

Agreed, and this is something planned for BB2024 (and BiaB plug-in w/DAWS like Reaper that support these track sections). This will open up lots of additional options when customizing solos and other tracks.

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