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Pipeline you're simply wrong. utterly mistaken.

I took a song - Ave Maria using Trickle.sty - gave it 9 choruses and did a regenerate in BIAB standalone. took around 10 or so SECONDS. Then ready to play.

Tried doing this in the plugin ( Mac 2020 ). and its literally not finished yet. we're taking minutes.


Last edited by nonchai; 03/12/20 10:13 AM.

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Seriously - ive just tried this in Ableton - and

........ 22 MINUTES!!! and it still hasn't finished generating.


Versus 10-12 seconds in BIAB standalone.

And this is acceptable?

https://youtu.be/L_wHeSx1qU8

Last edited by nonchai; 03/12/20 10:34 AM.

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"10-12 seconds in BIAB standalone"
is that start play in that time or rendered all files to hard drive ?
The plugin should be using the same function in BBW4 as BBW that renders the tracks to files.
Originally it was using the drag export function.

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I'm sure I told you ages ago that Biab is quicker as it's generating direct to RAM and starts playing the tracks while the rest of the bars are still being generated, and I suggested to the development team way back to do this with the plugin. Do you remember that ?
I don't know what more you want me to do ?
I made ReaTrak perhaps you can use that ?
If they had sold out to Yamaha you would not have RealTracks or a Plugin.
You didn't want them to spend time on Rewire cause you had to save it twice.

Last edited by Pipeline; 03/12/20 12:14 PM.
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Originally Posted By: nonchai
Originally Posted By: Rob Helms
As for speeding up generation, considering that it generates useable tracks usually 4 or 5, in somewhere around a minute. I don’t feel that is too much of a wait time to crush creativity. ............


I'm afraid I simply disagree. I find the current generation waits in BIAB standalone acceptable but absolutely not the much greater time in the plugin. As we know this is because in standalone generation gets done via RAM whereas in the plugin there is an extra step after this - namely writing the result to disk.

For me the creativity element is killed this way. And im on a relatively fast I7 Mac.

The waits incurred might be acceptable if one has firmed up the arrangement and isn't likely to be changing chords much - but if one is in early stages and trying out different progression or arrangement ideas this just hampers workflow to a point that frankly make me unwilling to use the plugin for actual production or composition in a DAW. But our disagreements on this point might as I suggest be more down to our differing approaches to composing or production etc..

I agree with you! Every tool I use delivers results pretty much instantly. So 2 minutes is an extreme wait when I am just noodling and trying to be creative. Definitely not good enough!

Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 03/12/20 01:19 PM.
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When you say BiaB stand-alone I take that to mean the main core program and not the standalone plugin. If that is the case then I offer that is apples and oranges. If one wants to play around with different chords, styles etc that is always going to be faster and easier in the main program. Maybe the generation will speed up some day, we will see. Let me remind everyone the true reason for this thread:

This thread is not about complaining over things that may be needed in the future.

The thread is not about how little the plugin is getting used because it doesn’t hold a candle to BiaB.

The thread is not about the fact that nobody cares, or who cares.

What’s the thread about?

The customer ( Buyers) being sold on 10 or so features of the plug-in that do not work and having to wait a long time for a resolution.

PGM has clearly weighed the consequences of falling short on a new plug-in that has very few people using it YET. They have dedicated the resources to keep their biyearly release cycle of a Windows and Mac versions of 50 new features 200 new RT’s Because that is their bread and butter.

Ultimately this thread is to remind them that while understand their needs, and do want their continued success, this is not right. We expect when there is an advertised feature list with a price asked for those features, those features should be provided in full working order.

I see an add for the latest version of my favorite SUV on special sale this weekend. it says it has 1 year free satellite radio, free dash GPS, Bluetooth phone connection, heated leather seats. $35,995. I drop into the dealer and they tell me the sale version is being shipped but most of them have been preordered and the sale end this week there’s only 6 left. I sit down and guess they have one left in my color. It will be delivered to my home in three days. I write a check. Sign the paperwork and head home in anticipation.

Three days go by and sure nuff my car is delivered. I receive the keys and open her up. It looks great. The truck leaves, I decide to go for a drive to check it out. Buckle up and head out. Flip the radio on and FM works AM works but satellite radio does work, bummer I think. I decide to try out the GPS to get to a cool pie shop I heard about, touch the screen and there’s no setting for GPS. Huh, it’s kinda cold so I go to hit the button for the heated seated whaaaaaat! Now I’m upset so I hit the Bluetooth and you guessed it there is no phone connection in this radio model.

I get home and call the dealer they tell me that those features are not available YET. They will implement them but first the have another model that will be for sale next month and after that they will look into fixing my car!

This is why this thread was started. I still love the car but it should not have been advertised as having those features if they were not there.

Last edited by Rob Helms; 03/12/20 03:24 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Rob Helms
What’s the thread about?

The customer ( Buyers) being sold on 10 or so features of the plug-in that do not work and having to wait a long time for a resolution

....this is not right. We expect when there is an advertised feature list with a price asked for those features, those features should be provided in full working order.

You are 100% correct but PGM operates this way. They release broken features and some never get fixed. Custom track names that are not consistent throughout the program. UserTracks...an extremely cool feature that never quite got finished. VideoTracks that were DOA. The VST that was shipped completely broken and still has major problems a year and a half later. And this year...multiriffs. I have gotten excited about every one of these (except VideoTracks) and then saw that excitement fade away as they move on to the next year's 50 new features. What pisses me off the most is the denials, from PGM and their biggest fans, when something obviously broken is discussed here in the forums.

That paragraph sounds like I am an unhappy PGM customer, right?

But that is NOT true!

I remain completely delighted with the RealTracks and RealStyles so I send PGM almost $300 every year without fail! PGM consistently delivers extremely high quality music tracks and a really great tool in BIAB to use them.

I wish they would improve BIAB. I really do. But I honestly don't know if they can.

I grumble here and I expect I will continue but at the end of the day I remain thrilled with what I can create with BIAB, RealTracks and RealStyles!

And a huge THANK YOU to people like Rob Helms, Pipeline, VideoTrack, MusicStudent and others who help us all work around the BIAB bugs and who still push for improvements even when they seem slow in coming.

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Amen.
Band-in-a-Box® 2020 for Mac is Here!
right now that's done where were we ?

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JJJ, I deeply appreciate your thoughts. This must be particularly hard for you since you had a hand in the plugin concept in the beginning.

One bright light right now. We all know that PG does care about their customers. They have been kind of trapped in a tightly wound cycle of biannual release the last few years. It seems they have really picked up the pace this year as Mac came out in early March not June or July. I could be wrong but that seems to point to Peter wanting to make these issues right, and carve out some time early this year to fix issues.

If I am correct then let’s get ready to help in anyway possible when the update roll in let’s focus on the listed items in the beginning of this thread and not waste valuable time fussing about other issues that we might want, we can tackle those issues when the core promised functions are stable. That will also help PGM end the season strong and get ready for a promising 2021


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Originally Posted By: Rob Helms
When you say BiaB stand-alone I take that to mean the main core program and not the standalone plugin. If that is the case then I offer that is apples and oranges. If one wants to play around with different chords, styles etc that is always going to be faster and easier in the main program.


I respectfully. ***strongly*** disagree. This is not apples and oranges. For starters the issue is present EVEN IF one isn't playing around with chord progressions but simply needs to move between different BIAB song file arrangements for whatever reason. Every time one needs to generate ANYTHING in the plugin this huge waiting time dispirity will occur.

This isn't some "luxury" nice-to-have feature in BIAB standalone that for some reason any user of the plugin - who really wants to begin focusing on working primarily in a DAW environment - for production reasons as opposes to just music practice purposes - can somehow live without or forego. Do you seriously think ANYONE WANTS these long regenerate times when doing work of any kind in a DAW?

Plugins are for DAW users. And you think somehow that waits for 5 minutes or so when working on a project are going to be acceptable? Is this kind of forgiveness and tolerance of a plugin developers excuses is going to pass any muster?

This plugin as currently sold and delivered to us DAW users is not fit for purpose.


Originally Posted By: Rob Helms

I get home and call the dealer they tell me that those features are not available YET. They will implement them but first the have another model that will be for sale next month and after that they will look into fixing my car!



And with regard to the generate times disparity - the analogy I'd propose is TESLA.

Imagine that TESLA had actually begun business making luxury full-features sports cars that ran on petrol air diesel. And then later on decided to launch this new fangled desirable thing. called Electric versions of the same car.

People who've grown too love and are accustomed to the petrol teslas put down orders for the electric versions.

Then the customers get their electric Teslas. But - not having read or been given the small-print..... the discover that yes - all the features of the old teslas are there................. except the Teslas only do a maximum miles-per hour of 12 MPH - and just like in early combustion engine days- they expect a man to walk in front of the electric tesla with a flag - for warning others - in case the batteries explode.


Last edited by nonchai; 03/13/20 04:49 AM.

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Originally Posted By: nonchai
Seriously - ive just tried this in Ableton - and

........ 22 MINUTES!!! and it still hasn't finished generating.


Versus 10-12 seconds in BIAB standalone.

And this is acceptable?

https://youtu.be/L_wHeSx1qU8


So as to not highjack this thread and get you better results I suggest starting a new thread to compare Mac vs Win rendering times and or to debug your issues.

Here are a few things to start your new thread.
- Have you contacted support to see if this is unique to your system?

- Do you have more than one DAW to compare results on your system?

- For example, a typical song will generate in less than a minute on the Windows plugin.

- To debug your issue you will need to have a song that is testable by many to verify the results.
I tested:
_CITRINE Demo - Citrine Nashville Heavy Ballad


Test that Song demo and let us know your results.





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Originally Posted By: jpettit


............
Test that Song demo and let us know your results.
........



plugin: 27.959. seconds - vs
BIAB standalone. : 6.6. seconds.

Thats is........... 4.2 times slower.

This is for 2 choruses.

Now lets try this again with 9 choruses:

plugin: around 2 minutes
BIAB standalone. : 6.99 seconds


that is - about 17 times slower.



in CUBASE...

except this time around the plugin hangs in Cubase and I get the spinning wheel.

Will try again in Ableton.



Now just one comment - I prefer not to be dragging the audio files ( once generated in the plugin ) into the DAW. unless things are pretty finalised arrangement wise. So for most of the time with this plugin I will be using the audio streaming mode instead. but this makes no difference to the times. because either way the files get written to disk.

Also very noticeable is that the time for generating 9 choruses compared to 2 for this particular demo song is almost identical in BIAB Standalone.

Attached Files (Click to download or enlarge) (Only available when you are logged in)
CE Arranger Chain 1.png (394.61 KB, 154 downloads)
Last edited by nonchai; 03/13/20 07:21 AM.

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Here is the result for _CITRINE - this time in Ableton and only using 4 choruses:

BIAB Standalone: 7.15. seconds
BIAB Plugin: 63.154 seconds.

Ableton doesnt seem to hang though - compared to Cubase - which does. Often.

Attached Files (Click to download or enlarge) (Only available when you are logged in)
501Bass, Electric, NashvilleRadiol.png (309.75 KB, 150 downloads)

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Ok, there are at least four things to consider.

1) Mac vs. Win
2) Spec of the systems
3) How BiaB renders (in RAM or cached) vs how the Plugin renders (file-based)
4) DAWs

1) I don't think it is a Mac vs. Win issue (Need another Mac user to benchmark and suggest moving that to the Mac area to get more Mac users)
2) Your time BIAB Plugin: 27.959 seconds. vs mine 26.888 (basically the same so it is not your system or Mac vs Win)
3) The plugin has been and will continue to get tweaked to work the same in all DAWs. There are also some styles that will hang while rendering so it is important to always give test step specifics so others can verify and report the time benchmarks and hang issues to support so that they can track it down.






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Originally Posted By: nonchai


...

This isn't some "luxury" nice-to-have feature in BIAB standalone ....


... This plugin as currently sold and delivered to us DAW users is not fit for purpose. ...




This thread is starting to compete with the record breaking off-topic JOKE thread, at least with respect to the number of posts (maybe content as well?).

While I'm here, I do not recall the plugin being sold separately - the rhetoric suggests otherwise.

Larry


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Now that the Mac version is released we can hope that these fundamental issues get addressed.
Originally Posted By: jpettit
Advertised 2020 Plugin features that do not work:
  • Center
  • Panned
  • Dry
  • Embedded Tempo
  • Normalize
  • The 300 new MIDI RCs for Real Drums
  • Style changes in the Bar settings
  • The new in 2020 Harmony's
  • Medley Changes
  • Ending only works with 4 bars ending.
  • RDs do not re-generate when generated on the Style page Center

To complete the basic rendering capabilities of BiaB:
  • Direct Input
  • Pushes



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I may be off base here, but I'll say it anyway. So, I've been following this thread and it does seem to me to that it's comparing apples to oranges.

As has been said, when BIAB generates a song, it starts playback shortly after generating the beginning of the tracks, and then keeps generating the rest of the song in the background while the song is playing. So, while it may seem to only take 6 or 7 seconds, that is just to have enough generated to start playback, but because BIAB will continue generating the rest of the RealTracks in the background, it's not enough to have fully formed tracks from beginning to end in that 6 second time period. Unfortunately, you don't see how long it actually takes BIAB to generate the track completely; you only see how long it takes until playback starts. When RT's first came out, you actually had to wait for all the tracks to be generated before playback happened. Then they figured out how to start playback before the tracks were generated, but that only reduced the time to start hearing the playback, but the tracks kept generating in the background.

Try regenerating a song in BIAB with a bunch of RealTracks and then immediately try to play on the last few bars of the song and see how long it takes to hear it play. BIAB has to generate all the tracks to that point to be able to hear it.

Given that the process of the plugin is to drag a track from the plugin into your DAW, even if you could hear playback happening more quickly (which is probably doable), you still can't drag in a track that hasn't been fully generated yet.

I'm not saying it can't be done faster (perhaps in memory), but you have to consider what is happening under the hood. I agree that if RT's could be cached into memory and processed there (as Pipeline has suggested), it would be a lot faster; that could even be applied to the main BIAB program, not the jut plugin (or the RealBand interface to the BIAB features). Maybe when you select a style file, it should just automatically load that content into memory (after checking for enough memory to do so) and process it there. Given that even though the files are WMA, BIAB processes them as WAVs, that means a 3 minute song with 5 tracks at 10 MB/min would only mean loading 150MB into memory, which should be pretty fast. And then it's there until you change styles or load a different RT or RD.
If memory was not available, then do it off the hard drive as it does now.

But to compare generation times for entire tracks versus just the ability to hear the beginning of the song playing is still apples to oranges.

Flaming can start now, if you wish. Doesn't bother me.


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Originally Posted By: nonchai
Originally Posted By: Pipeline
Originally it took ages to generate but then it was changed to use the same render method as Biab so it is the same render speed now (see pic below same song in Biab and the Plugin).

hmmm - I'll be testing out this myself ( on Mac beta ) as I'll remain sceptical on your claim. But if true fantastic.

Originally Posted By: nonchai
Pipeline you're simply wrong. utterly mistaken......


Did you even look at this pic of the original render times ???
it's not wrong and it's not a mistake.
ps. I get faster render times on Mac than Win using the same hardware.

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John you are right on with your analogy. That is as my point you just said it better.


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I timed the render in the Plugin compared to exporting the same separate tracks for the above-mentioned test song in BiaB and the results are similar.
Back to fixing the OP issues.
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=585534#Post585534


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Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!

Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.

Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.

Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!

Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!

With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!

Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111

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