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You guys are much more versed in this issue than me. Basically, it's a well know issue that the Window's MIDI over USB driver is a single client driver. This seems to go as far back as Win XP and exists today through Win 11. Even with some MS claimed improvements in the driver, it's still a single client driver. We're not talking about audio multi-client drivers here, this pertains to MIDI only.

What this means is that when BIAB or RB grabs the driver for MIDI over USB, no other application can then use MIDI over USB. It is strictly single client. In my case, I'm trying to run RB with a Helicon Voicelive Extreme and use the Voicelive Editor software and RB or BIAB at the same time. I can run RB / BIAB with the Helicon unit but as soon as I start the VoiccelIve Editor software it will not connect to RB / BIAB. Conversely, If I run the Helicon unit and the Editor software, RB / BIAB will throw and error when using the MIDI out to the Editor software.

I've tried using MOTU and Focusrite multi-client drivers but these seem to be audio only. I've also tried LoopBe1 and VoiceMeter Banana...no success. Again, what I'm looking for is MIDI over USB not audio via USB. My multiclient audio drivers have no problem with my setup, MIDI is the problem.

There must be a way around this as it's such a common problem, but the solution is way above my paygrade! Some of you guys are well into the workings of various software packages and may know a way around this.

Can you help?

Jeff


Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2024, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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I believe you need a MIDI interface like this MOTU unit:

https://motu.com/products/midi/lite

I have been using this MOTU interface for years:

https://motu.com/products/midi/128

I have 4 synths and one audio (It uses MIDI for changing, creating, loading/saving presets) at the same time.

Edit - I do not use these or any other VSTis in BiaB. But I do in my DAW Studio One Pro and all of my previous DAWs like Vision and Cakewalk.

Good luck and I hope this helps.

Last edited by MarioD; 01/15/24 11:02 AM.

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64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Jeff, As I understand your predicament you're wanting to exchange midi data between one hardware device, the Helicon Voicelive Extreme, and multiple software programs, the Voicelive Extreme editing software + Band-in-a-Box or RealBand, is that correct?

If you are willing to purchase a multi-client usb midi driver, +++ Loop Be 30 +++ may suit your needs. That is the only solution I am aware of.

Last edited by Jim Fogle; 01/15/24 11:08 AM.

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I think that is a BIAB limitation! I run two keyboards over USB with Win 11, no problems. Also run a midi controller via USB at the same time. As well as my midi in and out via the MOTU Audio Express. So I never have issues with MIDI routing except back in the day when I tried to run Helicon Voicelive and use the Voicelive Editor software with BIAB.


Dan, BIAB2024, SoundCloud Win11, i7(12thGen), 32GB, 1TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD), 2TB Libraries, 1 TB(WD-Black), 2TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD)Data, Motu Audio Express, Keystation 61, SL88 Studio, Reaper

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Have you tried not using PG Applications?

Do you have other programs you could use? I say this because I can use my midi drivers sending PC and CC across different apps and devices without any problem (so far).

So here is my setup:
I use BandHelper from my Android device to send wireless MIDI PC and CC to change Presets in my Line 6 Helix using WidiMaster Bluetooth MIDI attached to Helix, in turn, Helix sends the same commands via USB to Gig Performer4, changing Rackspaces to make use of Midi Guitar 2 which in turn trigger Softsynths.

At the same time I use SongMaster Pro to automatically trigger PC to Helix during playing backing tracks. When the playhead reaches the programmed marks, it changes the guitar effects for me.

At the same time I Start, Stop, Mute or Solo Tracks and Stems using Nanokontrol2 Midi Controller on SongMaster.

Everything is working perfectly and all at the same time.

So, I use these MIDI Drivers:
1) BLE Midi
2) Nanokontrol2 USB
3) Line 6 Helix USB
4) Loobe1 (used between Applications).

All of the above is under Windows 11.

I am not surprised if PG software does not work well... I am having Audio issues with it that I do not have with other software manufactures, hence I did not give my money to PG Music this year, instead, I allocated it towards SongMaster Pro, What a great Application that is for practicing and Live gigs!

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Hi Guys! Appreciate all of the comments. Here's my responses to your questions:

1. I have a Focusrite 8i6 audio interface, a MOTU Micro Lite MIDI interface, MOTU 828 Mk3 interface and a MOTU Express XT MIDI interface. I have had no success with any of these interfaces. I have no problem with audio, I can run multiple audio apps, stream from the internet, run RB and BIAB at the same time...all with no issues. All have multi client audio drivers.

2. I can run RB/BIAB and send MIDI info to the VoiceLive 3 with no problem on any of the above interfaces OR I can run the Voicelive Editor and control the VL3 with no problem. The problem comes up when I try to run RB/BIAB AND the VoiceLive Editor at the same time. Doing this results in an "out of memory" error in RB...even though I have 32Gb of memory.

3. What seems to be happening is that whichever application is opened first...either RB/BIAB or the VoiceLive Editor...that application grabs the MIDI over USB driver and then does not allow the other applications to access MIDI over USB.

4. This appears to be a well known problem with Windows that does not appear on MAC's. As I understand this, it happens because the VoiceEditor software and RB use a class compliant USB MIDI driver that is provided by Windows. This driver is a single client driver only.

5. I can get around this using MIDI 5 pin DIN's. If I run DIN's from the VL3 to any of my interfaces everything works fine....I can run RB, the Voicelive Editor, the VL3 and all my synths with no problem and control of each. While MIDI over USB would be 100's of times faster, MIDI with DIN's does work...just slower. So why not continue this way? The new version of the VoiceLive Editor supports MIDI over UISB only!

I will continue to explore this issue. Will try to run MIDIOX and LoopMidi today to see if I can get around this limitation. In the mean time any and all ideas are most appreciated.

Thanks guys!

Jeff


Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2024, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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It's funny, I think, but until I started using BIAB and therefore music stuff on Windows, I'd had no idea that this was an issue. In my naivety, I'd presumed that Windows has similar MIDI/audio routing abilities to Linux. I have to say that it came as a bit of a shock to find such a fundamental limitation. Linux has the reverse problem ... too many different ways to do it, which therefore sometimes need bridges between systems.


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I have no idea what y'all are talking about. I run three different keyboards simultaneously. Two with MIDI over USB and the third via 5 pin connectors through my Behringer BCF 2000 which itself is MIDI over USB.


Byron Dickens

BIAB. CbB. Mixbus 32C 8 HP Envy. Intel core i7. 16GB RAM W10. Focusrite Scarlett 18i 20. Various instruments played with varying degrees of proficiency.

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I had an old version of VoiceLive but I never use any midi control with it.
Is this a third party app for it ? https://www.voiceliveeditor.com/index.php/download-voicelive-3-free-edition
Try the other suggestion and see how you go, I can look more into it if you don't have any luck.

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I do it by selecting Multiple MIDI drivers in RB Preferences - Options
Then select the driver for a given tracks Port in the Track Port .. but this may not work for multiple internal softwares trying to share a driver .. but if you could loop the MIDI out to hardware devices and back in you may be able to select the other Driver in one of the softwares .. just spitballin'

I'm pretty sure I run RB using my Focusrite MIDI In/Out and Kontakt via my Juno MIDI device .. so if you can avoid using Windows driver and employ other drivers there might be a way.

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Last edited by rharv; 01/16/24 05:06 PM.

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Last edited by musocity; 01/16/24 06:21 PM.
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Appreciate all of your input and help guys. I did get a response back from Pete Brown, Product Manager at Microsoft, who's team is developing the next version of MS's USB driver. Seems there is no good config for my situation, guess I'll just stay on the older version of VoiceLive Editor and use 5 pin DIN's. Here, by the way, is Pete Brown's response in regards to my questions about single client MIDI over USB:

Yes, the current API implementations are single-client. There are some hacks for some devices where they implement multi-client in the driver, but to do it properly meant we had to rewrite MIDI on Windows from the ground up, which we are. New driver, new Windows Service (the older APIs go direct from API to driver and so have no way to plug into them), new API.

The new API we're delivering later this year is multi-client by default, and we're doing everything we can to plumb that back into the existing APIs so that, while they won't get all the goodness of MIDI 2.0, they'll get multi-client support. We need to do a ton of testing to ensure it doesn't break any existing apps, though.

For apps that use the new API directly, they also get outbound message scheduling, MIDI 2.0 features like increased resolution, new transports like Network MIDI 2.0, and more.

Pete Brown
Microsoft


Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2024, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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Yes MusoCity, that is the app that I'm trying to run via USB.

Jeff


Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2024, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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