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#800037 02/14/24 10:16 AM
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Is there an archive here or on the web of jazz standards where people can download .SGU files
of the Real Book jazz standards for free?


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The simple answer is No.


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Originally Posted by Jim Fogle
The simple answer is No.

Thanks Jim.
I'm quite surprised actually.

I did a search online and found a couple of sites that are selling these files.
I figured that someone or some group of people would have put together
a repository of jazz standard files somewhere on the internet by this time
that people could share freely.

Has PG Music made commercial arrangements with the sites that are selling these files?
I ask because the two sites I have found are using the PG Music logo.
This seems rather odd to me.


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There is some nuance here.

It is legal to share chord progressions. Most of the time, that's a BIAB file type of SGU. It is not legal, without permission or the payment of royalties, to share these fakebook songs with melodies as an .MGU file. Thus you see all kinds of variations out there.

You might be surprised to know that more than a few of the PG Music demo songs (which are themselves copyrighted) use the chord changes of jazz standards. To my knowledge there isn't a list cross-referencing these, although it has been suggested a few times over the decades.

And of course, even if you find some .SGU files of jazz standards, the quality of the work can vary. Are they using the right chords and upper extensions? Shots and holds and anticipations in the right place? Plus, there is a lot of disagreement if the chords in those earlier Real Books were even correct.

My recommendation is to look at the nortonmusic.com site. Bob 'Notes' Norton has made, legally, BIAB disks that are great quality. It's worth paying for.


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Thanks Matt for your reply. We're on the same wavelength here.
Thanks for explaining the distinction between the SGU and MGU files and copyright.

I agree there is tremendous variety out there in terms of SGU quality and faithfulness to the original chords (extensions) etc. But then again, as I brought to light recently in another thread, the blame can't always be put on the creator of the SGU files. BIAB isn't very reliable in delivering precise chords that have been input.

I visited Norton's site many years ago and again today, and have never found any of his output to be
of use for me in terms of quality and faithfulness. The songs I listened to today were midi-based except for the drums. This is clearly out of date concerning what's possible today with real tracks.

I found another commercial site that apparently has complied most/all of the Real Book songs.
I listened to a few of their songs and they're fine. All they have done is taken the time to input the chords into BIAB and let BIAB do its job. The site is https://www.learnjazzstandards.com.

What I'm looking for is a little more than this. First, a site that shares these files freely.
And second, song files that are more than simply bare bones vessels.
It would be cool if the songs had the hippest of changes.
And even more cool, if the arranger found a way to choose the best style appropriate with
custom bass lines, stops/shots etc.

I know I know, you'll tell me I'm dreaming. smile
But it is 2024 and times a tickin'. It's possible.
Will it ever happen?

In the meantime I will just have to struggle to get some decent sounding tracks made, the ol' fashioned way.


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Originally Posted by MoultiPass

Thanks MoultiPass.

Wow someone has done a lot of work compiling all of these songs!

I'll think I'll pass though on this one. smile


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When biab was first introduced ( on 5.25 floppy diskettes) a real book of jazz standards accompanied it. I’m guessing this was early 90’s but I’m aging and I misremember more than I used to.
Anyway it was discontinued after a couple of years.

As I remember many of the charts were pretty good.

Bygones.


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Originally Posted by mrgeeze
When biab was first introduced ( on 5.25 floppy diskettes) a real book of jazz standards accompanied it. I’m guessing this was early 90’s but I’m aging and I misremember more than I used to.
Anyway it was discontinued after a couple of years.

As I remember many of the charts were pretty good.

Bygones.

Very interesting!
I can't remember that far back either. smile
What I do remember was running my first BIAB on an Atari. !


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Originally Posted by BIABman
<...snip...> The songs I listened to today were midi-based except for the drums. This is clearly out of date concerning what's possible today with real tracks.<...>.

Yes, there is a reason for that. When I compiled Fake Disk #37, The Real Book 6th Edition, with all Real Styles, I got a number of complaints. The MIDI people were very unhappy.

Here is why:
  • If I assign a MIDI style, in most cases BiaB will suggest both a MIDI and an appropriate Real Style
  • If I assign a Real Style, no MIDI style is suggested, and the MIDI people don't have a suggestion.

So the only way to get both a MIDI and Real suggestion is to assign a MIDI style.

If you don't like either the MIDI or Real style suggested, you can substitute any style in your BiaB collection.

I don't pick the styles myself. I hire that out to contractors, and send them a share of each disk I sell. If I picked the styles myself, I would probably favor my own, because I know them best. I tell the contractors to pick the best style for the song, and if both a Norton and PG Music style work as well, choose the PG Style.

As far as faithfulness is concerned, I make my Fake Disks using the chord progressions in the corresponding books. If the books have the right chords, my fake disks will have the right chords. If the book has substitution chords, the fake disk will, too.

There are rare instances where there was an obvious error in the book, which I corrected, and noted in the Memo.

Each fake disk has one or more free samples you can download and try out in BiaB. Look in the list of songs on the right, and any song with a hyperlink can be downloaded.

What I sell is legal, as I've been audited twice by BMI with no problems noted.

It's also something you can do yourself, if you want to spend the many hundreds of hours per book to enter, correct and audition styles.

Try the free samples, change the style to a Real Style, if you like it, fine, if not, that's OK. I put the samples up so that people can try before they buy. I don't want to sell something you will be unhappy with. I make my living gigging, the BiaB is a sideline for me.

Notes ♫


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Originally Posted by BIABman
Is there an archive here or on the web of jazz standards where people can download .SGU files
of the Real Book jazz standards for free?
Have a look here https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?p=2050821#post2050821
also Biab Import iReal Pro Chords

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Originally Posted by Notes Norton
Originally Posted by BIABman
<...snip...> The songs I listened to today were midi-based except for the drums. This is clearly out of date concerning what's possible today with real tracks.<...>.

Yes, there is a reason for that. When I compiled Fake Disk #37, The Real Book 6th Edition, with all Real Styles, I got a number of complaints. The MIDI people were very unhappy.

Here is why: ...

It's also something you can do yourself, if you want to spend the many hundreds of hours per book to enter, correct and audition styles.

Try the free samples, change the style to a Real Style, if you like it, fine, if not, that's OK. I put the samples up so that people can try before they buy. I don't want to sell something you will be unhappy with. I make my living gigging, the BiaB is a sideline for me.


Hi NN thanks for stopping by here.
I realize very well that 100's of hours are required to put together a compilation that I am talking about here.
It could be one person putting in this time or a group of people, maybe a dozen or more etc.
A collaboration.
When I made my post this is what I was thinking about. I know I can input each song, but that's not what I was inquiring about.

Today I listened to Besame Mucho, Cheek to Cheek and Corcovado. The chords and sound of each one
were less than inspiring. smile

As I mentioned, I'm looking for hip/cool chords (changing the fake book chords if it's better) and real-sounding audio, not cheesy sounding midi from 20 years ago. smile

I understand your rationale for including midi, but that's not what I am looking for.at this time.


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Since I do them with off-the-shelf fake books, most of the chords are the standard changes. Not very adventurous, but instead, authentic.

I have a few collections that feature pro-substitution chords:

https://www.nortonmusic.com/fake3.html

https://www.nortonmusic.com/fake8.html

https://www.nortonmusic.com/fake9.html

https://www.nortonmusic.com/fake10.html

https://www.nortonmusic.com/fake11.html

https://www.nortonmusic.com/fake12.html

https://www.nortonmusic.com/fake14.html

Each of these disks have two versions of each song, one with the published chords, and another with the author's substitutions. Personally, I like the Dick Hyman changes (#3 and 14) better than the Frank Mantooth changes (8 through 12). I like the way he moved the bass lines with the substitutions. On the other hand, the Mantooth books sometimes introduce some interesting slight dissonances.

Notes ♫


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Originally Posted by Notes Norton
Since I do them with off-the-shelf fake books, most of the chords are the standard changes. Not very adventurous, but instead, authentic.

I have a few collections that feature pro-substitution chords:

...

Each of these disks have two versions of each song, one with the published chords, and another with the author's substitutions. Personally, I like the Dick Hyman changes (#3 and 14) better than the Frank Mantooth changes (8 through 12). I like the way he moved the bass lines with the substitutions. On the other hand, the Mantooth books sometimes introduce some interesting slight dissonances.

Notes ♫

Could you provide a sample we could listen to from any of the collections you mentioned above?


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Originally Posted by musocity

Thanks for looking into this thread Muso.
I'm not looking to import anything into BIAB.

I'm just looking for a compilation of jazz standards from the 'Fake Book' (.SGU files )
that are really cool sounding. Using RealTracks/Drums that use hip chords and additionally
stops/shots/ bass lines from the original (like Footprints bass line etc.).
Where people can freely download these files.
'File-sharing'.


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It’s not just the melody that is copyrighted. Hooks can count. A unique rhythmic figure can count.

The bass line from Footprints might be recognizable enough that the song is no longer just a chord progression legal to copy as an .SGU file.


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Originally Posted by BIABman
<...>Could you provide a sample we could listen to from any of the collections you mentioned above?

If you go to my fake disks page https://www.nortonmusic.com/contents.html#fake and click on any of the fake book links, that fake disk page will open.

On the right-hand side, there is a list of all the song chord progressions on the disk. At least, one will be a hyperlink. You can download the hyperlinked songs, they are free samples, and play them in your Band-in-a-Box. If you don't have, or don't like the style that is suggested, choose one from your collection.

Notes ♫


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Originally Posted by Matt Finley
It’s not just the melody that is copyrighted. Hooks can count. A unique rhythmic figure can count.
<...>

True. Anything that is song-specific and an integral part of the song is part of the copyright.

How specific? That depends on the court, if it goes to trial.

But say you used the guitar lick from “Day Tripper” from The Beatles in your song, I would think you should consult a lawyer before you upload it, or record it.

Then again, listen to Michael Jackson's “Billie Jean” and Billy Ocean's “Caribbean Queen” and you hear the same 2 measure background figure played over and over.

When I write my User Styles I tend to avoid song-specific licks. In my early days of style writing, one of my customers asked for a “Don't Be Cruel” style. It was a challenge, but I did it. But it was only good for one song, and if you used the style for any other song, it just shouted “Don't Be Cruel”. Lesson learned, BiaB styles need to be more generic.

If you are trying to cover a song, IMO use a MIDI style, export the song and import it into a DAW or MIDI sequencer. Then you can insert the licks with the same instrument that plays the rest of the song. Of course, then you need to play the song only where it is legal.

Notes ♫

Last edited by Notes Norton; 02/16/24 07:22 AM. Reason: Added some second thoughts

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