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I'm on 2024 (1109) for Windows.

I've been trying to intersperse two multi styles, both using silence tracks, for verse, chorus and bridge contrast. I have the original chorus unfolded so I could add the bridge section.

I am going back and forth between the two style for intro and verse to chorus and bridge. When I check F5 bar settings the selected styles are showing as intended, but .... the song styles are not changing as directed. Some times they do and sometimes they don't. Upon regeneration I get unpredictable results as far as when the styles change.

I've been wondering if the silence tracks are somehow gumming up the works.

Any advice other than stemming out both versions and assembling in a DAW?

Thanks.


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Multistyle is practically incompatible with regeneration, Daw option required.


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"Any advice other than stemming out both versions and assembling in a DAW?"
This will also name all the instruments in the waveform so you can see what is where.
Open SGU in Reaper
Forget About Dragging Tracks !

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<< I've been wondering if the silence tracks are somehow gumming up the works. >>
No. BIAB recognizes silence to be the same as any RealTrack. That's it's purpose.

<< Multistyle is practically incompatible with regeneration, Daw option required. >>
Also no. My version has 11,165 styles and within that total, 1,014 are PG Music MultiStyles composed from both MIDI and RealTracks. Any Style can be converted into a User MultiStyle in either a single song use, or as a custom MultiStyle for use in any project. PG Music uses MultiStyles and RT1152:Silence a lot in their Demos. MultiStyles have existed in BIAB before RealTracks were introduced to the program. Possible a style or track has gotten corrupted but doubtful of an incompatibility with the program of either feature.


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To reiterate, I'm talking about using two different Multi Styles in the same song. I've attempted this 3 or 4 times. One style has 8 parts and the other 6. I only use the first 6 so that when I use bar settings to change from one Multi Style to another the a, b, c, etc. parts will be compatible.

The part markers are not working to change the style.

The reason I mention Silence tracks is my understanding, thanks to you, Charlie, is that silence tracks are used to switch instrumentation for the different parts in a Multi Style. That's why I thought it might be possible that silence tracks from different multi styles might be incompatible with one another and the cause of improper style change and regeneration issues.


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There are several ways to accomplish this. To test - I created an SGU song using MultiStyles Rainin + and Trepid +.

The method I use is to define substyles by Right Clicking on a Part Marker to open a drop down menu. Define Substyles will assign substyle letters and add them to the existing Style whether it's a normal substyle or a MultiStyle like Rainin + is in the test I created. The second MultiStyle only adds the a and b substyles of the second MultiStyle initially. As you see in the attached screen shot that even though I used instruments from a MultiStyle, the current SGU used the Style and first two substyles. Continue to define more Substyles to add other instruments or styles.

Although that's the case in my example, an SGU file can have as many as 24 substyles so I could continue to add/remove or silence many more instruments changing both styles and instruments as desired.

RT1152:Silence can be used as either a mute or a placeholder in a MultiStyle according to how the MultiStyle is arranged.

Attached Files (Click to download or enlarge) (Only available when you are logged in)
Rainin and Trepid MultiStyles.jpg (279.39 KB, 140 downloads)
Define Styles.jpg (49.94 KB, 132 downloads)
Styles Part Marker Layout.jpg (256.28 KB, 132 downloads)
Last edited by Charlie Fogle; 02/18/24 12:45 PM. Reason: Images added

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So I think what you are explaining Charlie is that changing style via Bar Settings (F5) does not carry the styles part setting with it. In other words, what was initially a or b won't be changed to the a or b of the new style.

Does this then mean that you can't have both a and/or b etc. parts from each style in the same SGU file?

If so, then it looks like Muso's suggestion to just use the DAW plugin with two (or more) style versions of the same song in the DAW and arrange from there is the way to go.

Thanks for your help.


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<< So I think what you are explaining Charlie is that changing style via Bar Settings (F5) does not carry the styles part setting with it. In other words, what was initially a or b won't be changed to the a or b of the new style. >>
Yes it can contain the various style parts. A MultiStyle is notated by the + sign. A MultiStyle + will be composed of several single/normal styles that are compiled into the MultiStyle.
So -
MDWEST + Multistyle contains the following styles
MDWEST1 will have -a- and -b- substyles
MDWEST2 will have -a- and -b- substyles
MDWEST3 will have -a- and -b- substyles
Using F5 Bar Settings or the Part Markers Define Style option the user will select the different a or b substyles from any of the numbered MultiStyle's Sub Styles it's composed of. The a and b parts of each numbered substyle can't be mixed with other numbered substyles. Each numbered substyle remains part of that particular numbered style.

Numbered styles can be used as stand alone styles as well as being part of the MDWEST+ style. They can also be included into any custom style a user compiles.

Each of the numbered substyles can have different instruments replace instruments of other numbered styles and styles can replace instruments with RT1152:Silence to mute that instrument by changing Part Markers in the main SGU. For instance, MDWEST1 has all the instruments of MDWEST+. MDWEST2 replaces the bass and Pedal steel with RT1152 and MDWEST3 replaces RT1152 and returns the Bass and also replaces a background pedal steel with a soloist pedal steel. These arrangements can be placed in any order and at any time in the Main SGU by changing Part Markers.

Once in the main SGU song file, then they can be mixed because they are defined by a new substyle letter. The Part Markers in the main SGU file can be configured to any combination the user selects. In the main SGU file, adding MDWEST1, 2 or 3 the -a- and -b- substyles will have new letters assigned in the Main SGU program. You can see this in one of the Screenshots I attached where Trepid a/b substyles were re-lettered to -g- and -h- in the main SGU song Chord Chart and the Rainin MultiStyle that uses letters a through f.

<< Does this then mean that you can't have both a and/or b etc. parts from each style in the same SGU file? >>
Not at all. you can have both a and b parts from each style as explained above in the same SGU file.

<< If so, then it looks like Muso's suggestion to just use the DAW plugin with two (or more) style versions of the same song in the DAW and arrange from there is the way to go. >>
This method works fine with the exception it's more time consuming, more complex and one loses all of the features like regeneration and rearranging the Part Markers by BIAB once files are exported out of the program into a DAW.

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MDWEST+ MultiStyle.jpg (181.27 KB, 124 downloads)

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Charlie,

I don't want to belabor this, but I'm still not getting it. In your example you are taking the breakdown of the individual styles that make up a multi style. I'm pretty sure that if you have chosen the multi style itself as opposed to the individual constituent styles, what is part a and b in the individual constituents is now a, b, c, d, e, f, g and h in the 8 part multi style +.

I getting the impression that you are regarding this as changing styles within a single multi style+ file, not two multi style + files. That is why I am thinking that as in my original example I can't use the a part from the _stunner+.sty and the a part from the _wanted+.sty in the same SGU song ... and why I said that apparently changing from one multi style + to another in the Bar Settings does not change the same part, a to a, that goes with the changed style.

What I was trying to do is use 2 multi style + and I assumed that the part instruction in the bar settings would properly select and change the a to f parts congruent with each multi style + parts.

That hasn't worked. Possibly I need to add part identifiers to the different styles and somehow designate the a from one of the styles as some other part for that song?

I'm going to forego the arm chair theoretical for now and go dig in the program again and see if I can incorporate what you've presented to a satisfactory result.


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Charlie have you tried to regenerate part of a track belonging to a multistyle? My result is this, a big void: impossible to regenerate.

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Originally Posted by DFT
Charlie,

I don't want to belabor this, but I'm still not getting it. In your example you are taking the breakdown of the individual styles that make up a multi style. I'm pretty sure that if you have chosen the multi style itself as opposed to the individual constituent styles, what is part a and b in the individual constituents is now a, b, c, d, e, f, g and h in the 8 part multi style +.

I getting the impression that you are regarding this as changing styles within a single multi style+ file, not two multi style + files. That is why I am thinking that as in my original example I can't use the a part from the _stunner+.sty and the a part from the _wanted+.sty in the same SGU song ... and why I said that apparently changing from one multi style + to another in the Bar Settings does not change the same part, a to a, that goes with the changed style.

What I was trying to do is use 2 multi style + and I assumed that the part instruction in the bar settings would properly select and change the a to f parts congruent with each multi style + parts.

That hasn't worked. Possibly I need to add part identifiers to the different styles and somehow designate the a from one of the styles as some other part for that song?

I'm going to forego the arm chair theoretical for now and go dig in the program again and see if I can incorporate what you've presented to a satisfactory result.

I'm reposting the Part Marker drop down menu from my earlier post. Note that I am using two distinctly different genres of MultiStyles, an Americana folk MultiStyle and a jazz ballad MultiStyle. Instrumentation and the actual style genre between them aren't closely related. It is obvious when the style and/or instrumentation change. I can use any of the substyles from either MultiStyle in an SGU file.

You are creating a custom song MultiStyle with the operations you're putting together. The -a- and -b- sections of the different MultiStyles you're using are selected by the sub- numbered MultiStyle you select from and those two -a- and -b- parts do not retain their original a/b lettering letters but do retain the style and instrument information and play correctly in the Main SGU file you're constructing. The letters are redefined in consecutive and accumulative alphabet order in the Main SGU song. You define Part Marker configurations by defining from the various numbered styles included in the MultiStyle you've selected. For instance choosing MDWEST2 would have instrument RT1152 rather than MDWEST1's RT1036 electric Bass. Choosing MDWEST+, MDWEST1 or MDWEST3 would use RT1036 Electric Bass.

EDIT: In the attached screenshot, Letters a through f are from the Rainin MultiStyle's numbered sub styles. Letters g and h are from the Trepid + MultiStyle and are the a and b Part Marker substyles of that MultiStyle.

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Rainin-and-Trepid-MultiStyles.jpg (49.82 KB, 106 downloads)
Last edited by Charlie Fogle; 02/18/24 03:25 PM.

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Originally Posted by MoultiPass
Charlie have you tried to regenerate part of a track belonging to a multistyle? My result is this, a big void: impossible to regenerate.
Yes. Generating and regenerating has not produced the error you're experiencing for me.

There's certainly something going wrong but it's not the fact of using MultiStyles. They've been around for decades. It needs to be reported to the developers and DFT may have also uncovered a bug affecting what DFT's attempting unless the a/b from one style is being confused that a/b from that style isn't replacing a/b from the first style. It can replace the first style's a/b but BIAB will re-letter (define in their words) them into new Part Marker letters in the Main SGU and that song file will contain both a/b parts from both styles and they are interchanged by changing Part Markers. .

Last edited by Charlie Fogle; 02/18/24 03:30 PM.

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"If so, then it looks like Muso's suggestion to just use the DAW plugin with two (or more) style versions of the same song in the DAW and arrange from there is the way to go."

You can use the script or the PLUGIN.
Generate New Style from Chords and Move to New Tab (Reaper)
VST 6 Multiple for more Bars (Reaper)
Regen Track Section Updating MIDI/RC (Reaper)
It's so easy, you can have the style change on the same track or another track to allow different FX and not have to automate them.
You can easily see the name of the instrument in the waveform with Write RT RD Names in items using Take Markers (Reaper) in the PLUGIN.
You don't need to worry about silence RT's as you can easily remove that section of track or mute it easy enough allowing it to be added if need be.

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Originally Posted by musocity
"If so, then it looks like Muso's suggestion to just use the DAW plugin with two (or more) style versions of the same song in the DAW and arrange from there is the way to go."

You can use the script or the PLUGIN.
Generate New Style from Chords and Move to New Tab (Reaper)
VST 6 Multiple for more Bars (Reaper)
Regen Track Section Updating MIDI/RC (Reaper)
It's so easy, you can have the style change on the same track or another track to allow different FX and not have to automate them.
You can easily see the name of the instrument in the waveform with Write RT RD Names in items using Take Markers (Reaper) in the PLUGIN.
You don't need to worry about silence RT's as you can easily remove that section of track or mute it easy enough allowing it to be added if need be.
That's right. I intended to make the point it may be easier for someone familiar with a DAW to export like you mentioned and it's easier for them than using BIAB. Being faster and less complex isn't necessarily the best way for someone that is familiar and proficient with another program that yields the same results.


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Muso and Charlie ...

Greatly appreciate all your input!

Unfortunately regarding scripts, I'm not a Reaper user, but I think I can accomplish essentially the same with the Plugin.

And, as my goal is only to compose/ arrange in BIAB anyway, going sooner to the DAW where I can massage tracks and add FX for the finished result I seek is not that big of a deal. I am much deeper into DAWs than I am into BIAB.

In my experience nothing does everything, but I am impressed and grateful for the strides BIAB continues to make.

Last edited by DFT; 02/18/24 06:24 PM.

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Yes you can do it in other DAWs with more than 1 plugin, just allow an extra bar to be cropped off in the DAW as Biab will fade the last bar and miss notes if you don't enable Ending, if you put a part marker on the last bar (that gets cropped off) you will get the pre-fill on previous bar to go into new style.
You can also offset the sync bar in the 2nd VST to start where the 1st one finishes if you want to preview before dragging all the tracks.

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