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I recently found out about Suno, a new web-based AI music generating program: https://www.suno.ai/It's got all the caveats associated with AI: Are the songs that I generate using Suno subject to copyright protection?
The availability and scope of copyright protection for content generated (in whole or in part) using artificial intelligence is a complex and dynamic area of law, which is rapidly evolving and varies among countries. We encourage you to consult a qualified attorney to advise you about the latest development and the degree of copyright protection available for the output you generate using Suno. Assuming the example songs posted on the site are representative, there are a number things that really impress me about Suno. I'm not sure I could distinguish a song generated by Suno from a commercial song. While there are some artifacts with some of the vocals, the audio quality otherwise seems to be very good. Suno can take user's lyrics and generate a full arrangement from it, in a wide variety of styles. Genre appropriate arrangement, catchy melodic lines, full harmonies - everything. Chat GPT lyrics still sound like Chat GTP lyrics, though.  The singers are very good - expressive, and genre appropriate. Rap music gets a rapper; country music gets a country singer. And it supports multiple languages. Want German, French or Korean? It can do it. Instrumental parts? It's got that as well. Just write "[instrumental]", and it'll render something appropriate. Now, I've still got the same reservations about using AI to generate music and lyrics. And I've got to wonder where it got all the training data from. That's somebody's voice it learned, and some writer's melody that it's copying, and some instrumentalist that's been sampled. Unlike BiaB, I'm sure that none of these people have been compensated for using their recordings as source material for the songs. So ethically and legally, I don't see how anything created by this could be protected by copyright. (The lyrics still retain copyright, but that's a different matter). But again - except for the occasional glitches in the vocals, I'm not sure I could distinguish what Suno generates from non-AI music.
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Yeah. Nice find David. I have been watching their Discord in the hope that they will publish an API so I can integrate with LyricLab. In this way an ordinary man in the street can make a once off personalised song for someone special. (Say for your wife on your wedding anniversary). I think this is the way music is going. It is becoming more and more democratised.
LyricLab A.I assisted chords and lyric app. Export lyrics and import directly into Band-in-a-Box 2024. https://lyriclab.net Play-along with songs you know and love, download SGU files https://playiit.com/
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Good find David, I'm impressed, now if somehow we could get something like that to work within biab.
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Assuming the example songs posted on the site are representative, there are a number things that really impress me about Suno. I totally agree, some of the material posted is extraordinary high quality. Boundaries have been pushed with this, for sure. Is this the tip of the iceberg?
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I can only hear plastic music. Technically impressive, yes, but even a mediocre karaoke midi file from the 90s has more soul than that.
If you take the soul out of the music, there's nothing left.To me, this is just disrespectful to real music and real musicians, it's just sad.
Last edited by Cerio; 03/09/24 02:14 AM.
BIAB 2024, latest build.
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Maybe the most skilled and creative musicians and producers in the future only will need one ”Button” in their music production software in order to catch their uniqueness, and never have to learn how to play an instrument, make a composition or how to sing etc.
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Maybe the most skilled and creative musicians and producers in the future only will need one ”Button” in their music production software in order to catch their uniqueness, and never have to learn how to play an instrument, make a composition or how to sing etc. I surely hope that never happens.
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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Maybe the most skilled and creative musicians and producers in the future only will need one ”Button” in their music production software in order to catch their uniqueness, and never have to learn how to play an instrument, make a composition or how to sing etc. Many here want that to happen. Going to the circus without buying a ticket...
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Maybe the most skilled and creative musicians and producers in the future only will need one ”Button” in their music production software in order to catch their uniqueness, and never have to learn how to play an instrument, make a composition or how to sing etc. Many here want that to happen. Going to the circus without buying a ticket... Yes! And they want that to happen in BiaB.
Seated at the restaurant, He "Darling can you say something that makes my heart beat faster"?
She "Your wife just walked in"!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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To me BIAB is a borderline between creative process and automation. And even that > (BIAB) is somewhat making me lazy  But it's a great tool for sketches, prototyping YOUR ideas. Anything beyond that is more of a craft, unless you figure out how to make it very creative. But that will require brain power beyond button clicking. " In this way an ordinary man in the street can make a once off personalised song for someone special." - Joanne, that is an example of "craft" in my book, similar to a sticker pamphlets sold for 2-3 year olds, which has little to do with creative music writing/process. If the goal is to have automated musical greeting card writing, go for it! In my humble view, If you lack desire to work on any (or combination) of: harmony, melody, lyrics, performance (instrumental or vocal), rhythm, improvisation... It has little to do with music creation.
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"but I think eventually AI will be able to write and record a song, better or even equal to a real human's input." Sure, that's why we should not waste time and stop playing music immediately. Same goes for sports, video games, books, puzzles, drawing, painting, sculpting, writing and many many others. Because AI can/will do it better, and some might argue just live "life" better than pathetic us "We can mourn the human creative process". In chess, machines were able to "win" over humans with ease for decades. Yet, we still enjoy PLAYING that GAME and praise our best. The question which should be asked talking about this: "press one button songwrite and record" Does this process of "button pressing" makes you a creative person? If that's the goal of course.... ----- 2044... Full time creative job opening. Professional button presser. Pre-requisite 4 years of college.
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Agree with all those points Rusty, I couldn't help a smile when I read a review from a use on Trustpilot,
............................................................
I am absolutely dissatisfied with free plan of suno.ai . Suno ai owns all users generated output. I do not want to use it because I do not like to allow SunoAI to earn money from my creativity. I do not recommend strongly this website.,.
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He mentions creativity, what creativity!
But still AI marches on it seems, and I find it fascinating.
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I am absolutely dissatisfied with free plan of suno.ai . Suno ai owns all users generated output. I do not want to use it because I do not like to allow SunoAI to earn money from my creativity. I do not recommend strongly this website. I believe that using people's music without compensation as training data for AI programs is unethical. However, complaining that they have to pay for a service if they want to use it to use the output commercially is nonsense.
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I've made music for 20 years. I started out making synth-pop and new wave. I have used Band-in-a-Box for ideas, but never in my final creations.
Since I discovered Suno, I've had an idea for a chord progression in a song, put that in the lyrics, and tried about 20 times to get something close to my original vision.
Then, I split the tracks into stems with Musicfy, remove the vocals, and add some elements in FL Studio. Then I kick that into the chord analyzer in BIAB, find a good backing track and solo, and kick that back out to FL Studio. Then I sing along and use my vocals as well as licensed AI vocals with Musicfy, and walla, I have a creation. It sounds nuts, but it takes about a day for an entire song.
The last song I made was a country song with a silly title: "You look pretty". I refined Suno's output with BIAB fiddles and some rhythm elements, along with my own and licensed AI vocals. I did keep some instrumental stems from Suno.
I don't know how ethical it is, but it's so mutated by the time I put it on YouTube; who knows? It's new territory.
I make country, synth-pop, new wave, dark wave, and acoustic music.
My main instrument is Piano.
https://www.youtube.com/@jimghenderson
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I don't know how ethical it is, but it's so mutated by the time I put it on YouTube; who knows? It's new territory. It's new territory.
WIN10 20H2, AMD R4800H ,16G , 2T ,FOCUSRITE 2i4 MKII，Studio One,FL STUDIO
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I don't know how ethical it is, but it's so mutated by the time I put it on YouTube; who knows? It's new territory. I'm going to pretend "ethical" and "legal" are the same thing, but obviously they aren't. Is this really new territory? Artists have forever been copying other artists, but changing enough elements so that they can't be sued. That's what you're doing here. The main difference is that the lyrics are still held under your copyright, so other people can't just copy your song wholesale. But... they could copy your melody, since even after your changes, you still don't have a copyright on it - even if it's a pastiche of AI melodies. Whether someone would know that the melody was AI generated is a different matter.
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AI in the creativity world is certainly full of controversy. I will say we use a licensed version of a popular AI at my work. You can feed it a pile of data and ask it to present it in any number of ways and it will almost instantly generate all the graphs, slides, summaries, video, just about anything you want. It only seems to be limited by your imagination. So it saves huge amounts of time. Of course in the near future it will take someone's place because you won't need that admin person to do that for you etc. So, more controversy. The government is behind working on regulation, so the cat is out of the proverbial bag. Tennessee just passed a law protecting musicians from AI. I have not read the text or even a summary, but it will be interesting to see how and if it works.
My wife asked if I had seen the dog bowl. I told her I didn't even know he could.
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I sell music on Pond5 and one company, that makes AI music or working on programming it, bought a whole bunch of my (casual) music in one buy tlast year.
So I got recompensated.
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@dcuny Ready for the next step? Try udio.com. This should soon offer stems download and is currently beta. It's stereo.
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Suddenly I feel so..... what's the word?????
Useless?
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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@dcuny Ready for the next step? Try udio.com. This should soon offer stems download and is currently beta. It's stereo. Yeah, it appears to be the "next big thing" in AI music. And unlike Suno, it appears that Udio is actually licensing their material. However, AI generated material still can't be copyrighted. But while I find AI generated music interesting, I'm not really interested in using AI generated music because it does all the parts of the music that I consider to be what makes it my own.
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...now if somehow we could get something like that to work within biab. Although not within Band-in-a-Box, in this video Bob Doyle Media shows how Suno can be used as a great starting point, especially when you pair it with Band-in-a-Box! -Callie
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Suno, or any other Ai, and BiaB are just tools and you can choose to use them or not.
Seated at the restaurant, He "Darling can you say something that makes my heart beat faster"?
She "Your wife just walked in"!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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It is easy to become fearful and irritated by new ways of doing things. I think the older we get the more change becomes uncomfortable. There is good reason to fear some techonology, atomic weapons come to mind. AI has some issues. Can AI kill off all the humans? Perhaps. Is that a big deal or any great loss? Likely not. We are most likely much less important than we would like to believe. We will be able to play and create music fora long time into the future. We will also find it harder to monatize and collect on those efforts as time goes by. AI will play and create music and at some point will be most likely be indistinguishable from human made music. Many of us have concerns about ethical issues but I fear we are in the minority. Good, bad, right, wrong and ethical issues tend to disapear as distance from shore increases...lol Riders On The Storm ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/FsgnNa1.jpg) Cheers Billy
Last edited by Planobilly; 04/23/24 05:02 PM.
New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment
If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
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Revisiting this topic. After doing a load of research and speaking with our AI guys at work I have a better understanding. Suno and others like it are not regurgitating others music, or sampling it or copying it or any of that. It was trained, supposedly on copyrighted music and based on all that training when given a prompt it actually creates a unique output that meets what it knows about that genre and any other qualifiers you may have used. In some cases it is quite spectacular. It still has hallucinations, gives you nonsense lyrics when you have checked the instrumental toggle for instance. But over all very impressive. I like it to many of us who learned how to play our instruments by learning from the people we studied or looked up to etc. I learned to play guitar copying Chet Atkins records, note for note. Now I can create something completely mine but I did it by learning what he did.
So in summary Suno and others are not just combining pieces of other music and calling it new. It generates from scratch a song, using programming of course, that mimics what it has learned that song should sound like, what instruments it should have, how that should sound, and what they should play given a chord structure it created as well. You ask for a blues instrumental in slide guitar and it pretty much nails it.
Last edited by etcjoe; 07/10/24 09:46 AM. Reason: Fix some spelling.
My wife asked if I had seen the dog bowl. I told her I didn't even know he could.
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Revisiting this topic. After doing a load of research and speaking with our AI guys at work I have a better understanding. Suno and others like it are not regurgitating others music, or sampling it or copying it or any of that. In some cases, it is "regurgitating other's music" - or at least portions of other people's copyright material. For example, it's been shown to generate producer's tags - basically audio signatures placed at the start of tracks. It was trained, supposedly on copyrighted music and based on all that training when given a prompt it actually creates a unique output that meets what it knows about that genre and any other qualifiers you may have used. Those "qualifiers" are how it categorizes elements of the songs that it's learned. Using the right qualifiers, it's possible to make Suno create output that is quite similar to copyright materials. Given that Suno is able to generate copyright-infringing output, it's clear that no "supposedly" is needed. Sunu is being trained on copyrighted material for which they have no license to use. AI companies attempt to stop this by preventing users from using certain descriptors, but with some clever prompt engineering people have been able to get around that restriction. So in summary Suno and others are not just combining pieces of other music and calling it new. Yes and no. It's not "combining" in the sense that it takes the first few seconds from one song, and then a couple more seconds from another song. But it is combining in the sense that it's learning songs, and then creating output by morphing elements of those learned songs. It's certainly more sophisticated that cutting and pasting between songs. But without having learned those songs - and stored them in its neural network - it would be unable to create new songs. It generates from scratch a song, using programming of course, that mimics what it has learned that song should sound like, what instruments it should have, how that should sound, and what they should play given a chord structure it created as well. I'm not sure what "using programming" means, but it doesn't really generate a song "from scratch". It generates a song by morphing together learned elements of songs from the training set. It just happens to have a huge amount of songs to draw from, so it's often difficult to see where it's come from. But choose enough descriptors that match the training data, and it'll spit out elements of those songs, showing that it's just copying after all.
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But choose enough descriptors that match the training data, and it'll spit out elements of those songs, showing that it's just copying after all. My wife, daughter and I were listening to a choral festival this afternoon. My kid was in the concert hall (one of her works was on the program) while we were streaming it at home in California. A piece came on and it was clear that the “composer” had asked an AI bot for something in the style of Sibelius. The words made no sense at all but the music was way, way too close to Finlandia for comfort. As we were discussing this at home, the signature chord change occurred and my daughter texted, “Turn left at Helsinki”. That text was easily the highlight of the piece. Sibelius is still under copyright in many countries for another three years. Finlandia is in the PD in the US, however, so there’s nothing that anyone would do on that score. The blatant sound-alike was cringeworthy per my daughter’s post concert report and my wife and I thought the same thing. A new arrangement using the tune with decent lyrics would have been preferable—what we heard was embarrassing.
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Whatever about the legalities involved, we can let the lawyers sort that one out, Ai music making is sure as hell entertaining and will only get better. You can probably tell I am a big fan!
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Billy, well said! This all reminds me of the Sony's pitch of their Aibo robo doggie in 90s. "Just like a real dog..." I prefer music (for the most part) that is made by humans, not a parody - even a very realistic one. A taste thing. Curiosity - sure it's a fun technology. A tool - likely useful, if you are not substituting a skill that you already have. If you have a $100-200 printer and can print 100 variations of Mona Lisa a day with crisp detail and vivid colors, this doesn't make it an "art", or you - an artist. Same as watching sports - doesn't make you an athlete. A new generation of Promtomusic (c). P.S. What is great, that centuries of music is available to purchase or rent either digital or CDs, LPs, etc. No shortage of good entertainment for my lifetime
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I lost the thrust of my point, I think we all create music, using what we learned from other music, in a similar way that our AI engineers here at my work describe to me what is going on. It just has the capacity to ingest 1000's of those songs and use it to generate its output. Do I have to attribute Chuck Berry when I use a double stop lick in my playing? Nope, but everyone that hears it and knows Chuck Berry can pretty much know it was lifted from him.
I know in my experimenting, I can't get it to create anything that sounds like something else I already know except in style and genre etc which it nails almost every time. does it use chord progressions that are prominent in those styles? Sure it does just like every songwriter on the planet. ii V I anybody?
It will certainly be decided by the lawyers and the courts. The big "record" companies are mad because they think they should be the only ones exploiting artists. how dare the computer guys get in on their game. If anybody is going to rip off an artist they want it to be them and nobody else!! LOL.
Lots of good points being made here by some level headed people though.
In the meantime, some of the AI stuff I have played with has given me some really good ideas!
My wife asked if I had seen the dog bowl. I told her I didn't even know he could.
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In this explosive fire storm of technical innovation we are all witnessing (aka AI development), my hope is that BiaB doesn't become obsolete.
More than ever, companies large and small must adapt, incorporate, pivot and invent or face decline.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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Yes, indeed. The sky is falling — again.
BIAB 2024 Audiophile, 24C/60G Core M2 MacStudioUltra/8TB/192GB Sonoma, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP
Digital Performer11, LogicPro
Finale27.4, Dorico5, Encore5, SmartScorePro64, Notion6, Overture5
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Off-Topic
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,861
Veteran
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OP
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,861 |
I lost the thrust of my point, I think we all create music, using what we learned from other music, in a similar way that our AI engineers here at my work describe to me what is going on. When you create music, you don't draw from the audio signatures of millions of songs to generate not only replicate chord progressions, but instruments, vocals, and studio effects. It just has the capacity to ingest 1000's of those songs and use it to generate its output. Not "1000's", but millions of songs. Songwriters remember songs. AI doesn't remember anything - it stores the information in a neural network and uses that to create songs that are based on that information. AI is designed as a tool that learns the elements of millions of song - including the voices and the instruments - and then creates new songs by mixing elements of those songs. Every song created is a remix of a prior song. That's entirely unlike how people learn and replicate music. As a small example, AI isn't going to include ideas inspired by a T.S. Eliot poem, the death of a loved one, or a seeing a rose in a garden. Every word that AI writes is taken from lyrics from someone else's song, using voices copied from other singers. Do I have to attribute Chuck Berry when I use a double stop lick in my playing? Nope, but everyone that hears it and knows Chuck Berry can pretty much know it was lifted from him. But AI doesn't know whether something it replicates is copyright infringing or not, because it's all potentially copyright infringing. Everything it does is created by a process of copying. The difference is that the process of replicating the sounds can usually hide the source material because there's so much of it. I know in my experimenting, I can't get it to create anything that sounds like something else I already know except in style and genre etc... That's not because it can't do that, but because the designers have intentionally hidden those controls from you. But AI can very much create songs with Elvis' voice, or riffs created by Chuck Berry. ...which it nails almost every time. does it use chord progressions that are prominent in those styles? Sure it does just like every songwriter on the planet. ii V I anybody? Because it mixes together inputs, AI songs tend to be an average of the training data. So it will tend to make generic choices, except when it drops signature sounds, like guitar licks and vocals. Equating the process that AI uses with the process songwriters uses is a false equivalence. AI doesn't have its own voice, the ability to play guitar, or the ability to consider the emotional impact of its lyrics. It will certainly be decided by the lawyers and the courts. The big "record" companies are mad because they think they should be the only ones exploiting artists. how dare the computer guys get in on their game. If anybody is going to rip off an artist they want it to be them and nobody else!! LOL. Unfortunately, this is likely to be 100% accurate. It seems that companies that own the copyright aren't interested in preventing AI from competing with artists, but are more interested in making sure they get a piece of that pie.
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