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I realize I should know this -- okay I've reached the bottom and I'm ashamed. But I have to ask or if I spend another sleepless night at this then BiaB is going packing! I need my sleep more than I need to toot a horn. But, the wife says I will toot -- then I must toot! Thus, I come to you ...
Okay, many years ago I played trumpet. Over the past several years I've dabbled with guitar. Well, the wife went and messed up my perfectly dull life and bought me both for Christmas. I now have a beautiful new trumpet and guitar starring at me at this very moment BEGGING me to play them.
Here's the deal ... I want to play both. I have purchased a few play-along jazz books for my Trumpet. I have purchased a few play-along books for my Guitar. I want to use BiaB to practice, play along, and when I get much better (perhaps when he** freezes over), then I think I might enjoy hearing myself play along with these backing tracks that I've bought. And yes, I'll probably lie and tell the grand-kids that I used to play the "strip".
Finally! Here's the question (and yes, I've read the posts about transposing at all hours of the night -- and day): Other than telling me that this software has 99 different ways I can approach this, can you tell me how I COULD best deal with the transposing issue. Note: The Trumpet play-along's are written for Bf Trumpet.
Thank you ... I'll check for answers here when the sun comes up! If things don't go right, I'll MAKE that guitar sound the same as a trumpet!
Ike
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Hi, Russell - Of course, I'm having this image of how you're going to play both instruments at the same time...  Guitar and B-flat trumpet are one full step (two half-steps) apart. Guitar (and just FYI, piano) is keyed to "C", and of course your trumpet to "B-flat". So (and this is what confuses people) when you play a "C" on the trumpet, that's the same as a "B-flat" on the guitar (or piano). Trumpet music is written one full-step higher than guitar or piano music for the pitch to match. So, let's say you're reading your guitar music and want the trumpet sounds to match, then you need to play one note up. The first column below is the note you see on the guitar (or piano) music; the second is what you would play on the trumpet to match what the guitar/piano is playing: C --> D C#/Db --> D#/Eb D --> E D#/Eb --> F E --> F#/Gb F --> G F#/Gb --> G#/Ab G --> A G#/Ab --> A#/Bb A --> B A#/Bb --> C B --> C#/Db Try it - from the chart above, play a C on the guitar (or strum a C chord), then play a D on the trumpet. You'll see they match in pitch. Now, if you are going the other way, where you are reading the notes on the trumpet music and want the guitar to sound the same pitch as the trumpet, then you need to lower everything one full step. The first column below is the note on the trumpet music; the second is what you would play on the guitar (or piano): C --> A#/Bb C#/Db --> B D --> C D#/Eb --> C#/Db E --> D F --> D#/Eb F#/Gb --> E G --> F G#/Ab --> F#/Gb A --> G A#/Bb --> G#/Ab B --> A Try it - from the chart above, play an E on the trumpet and you'll see that you'll need to play a D (or strum a D chord) on the guitar to match it. I hope that helped and didn't just confuse the issue.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2025/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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Good explanation.
Faced with that, ie. the wife on the flute and me on the trumpet with Band in a Box you need to print the music in the actual key (as John said) so if in Band in a Box it's written in C and sounds C you do that. Your options are to print both part, or have one person do the other part from band in a box.
If you find the P for Practice icon, there's a button to transpose the piece for Bb trumpet. Press that and note that the music goes to the key of G if you were in F and the you can play the trumpet along with it. Note that you are shown the piece on the screen in G but that it's still playing in F.
Probably some way to deal with the guitar and a capo but I'm no guitarist, however if you can stick one on and both end up in the same key that's another workaround.
Playing the trumpet and the guitar at the same time must be a hard thing to do.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
Playing the trumpet and the guitar at the same time must be a hard thing to do.
You know John, it's funny you should ask ... Yes, it's been a heck of a ride! I'm now wondering if others who play two or more instruments have some of the same episodes as me. My trumpet fingers want to react automatically to the notation I'm viewing at the time and there's been a time or two when I've had to just stop and put the guitar (or the trumpet) away for a few, then come back with my 'other' hat on, and then it seems to fall together more times than not! I don't know why except to suggest that maybe I'm getting into the music (listening to my music) and I'm sometimes not 'consciously aware' of what instrument I'm playing.
On the other hand, I've been thinking that it's interesting (from a brain-mechanics point of view), that there is difficulty in all of this and yet, I'm pressing trumpet buttons with my right-hand and pressing frets with my left, so why SHOULD there be a problem at all!
Here's a scenario: I find myself sometimes WANTING to use my index finger to play a 'B' on the guitar (since that's what I use on the trumpet). I have to actually stop and think (in the middle of playing) until it kicks in, what I'm doing (BTW normally the lower-octave, guitar 'B' is played with an open string -- where I'm not pressing a fret at all -- interestingly enough, even though I've comitted that 'B' to automatic guitar-memory sometimes the 'trumpet memory' crosses over if you're not paying attention and your fingers want to take over! I know, I know ... Weird stuff!
In contemplating this the other night I found that I could trumpet-finger the chromatic scale with my left hand, just as easily as my right! Now where did that come from? And up until now, It's never occurred to me that I even knew how to do this (not that there's any value to it of course)! It has proven to be an interesting set of circumstances to say the least (from a scientific view).
Certainly somebody's had to pick up on this stuff before and I'm sure there's probably books on the stuff. Oh, and I play split-hand piano too -- I don't even want to begin to think where that's going to go!
FYI -- I had a former instructor who in jazz band would come down off the podium and (with any score we knew how to play), bounce from one instrument to the other and never miss a beat -- and he knew how to play every one of those instruments before he was 13 years old! I tell ya' ... during those times it sure made us jazz-wanna-be's think long and hard about whether we should even consider this business to pay for our meat and potatoes -- I know that it made me envision myself starving!
Ike
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Hi Russell. I hope the trumpet note you are playing with your index finger is Bb, not B (natural). Otherwise, your slide has been cut, your hand position is wrong, or that's one funky horn.
There is some use for fingering with the left hand: French horn. I know what you mean about the surprise of finding out you could finger with either hand. I had a broken finger once on my right hand, and played a concert using my left hand to finger. No problem. Got to be a brain thing, because it sure isn't muscle memory in the conventional sense.
Some people who switch instruments have a problem because they have such an ingrained sense of what a certain pitch should sound like, that they can't make the mental adjustment when playing a transposing instrument where the same written note sounds different. My main instruments are pitched in C (trumpet, flute, vibes), Bb (flugelhorn, trumpet, soprano sax), A (piccolo trumpet) and G (alto flute). Got a few others, too. Sometimes it is a bit of a mind-bender when switching. The important thing is you follow what John said and make sure that you know what key the song is in and whether or not any transposition is in effect, because when you load the song in BIAB, there is no obvious way to tell. I make separate folders for songs in different pitches for different instruments. Some people name the song with the key in the name. But find something to keep it straight.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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I switch hands on the horn all the time, but a euph or bari makes that pretty easy. I don'[t have that problem with the keyboard and the horn though, I just have to add in enough bridge to make sure I can get one down and the other going.
Is it a C trumpet? Maybe Matt knows the fingering for a C trumpet, everything is Bflat here.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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It's highly unlikely Russell was given a C trumpet, but that would solve some problems.
As for fingering, it's the same as Bb although many C trumpets have a few notes where alternate fingerings are more in tune. D, Eb and E at the top of the staff are often better with alternate fingering (play it as if the note were down an octave).
The whole principle behind fingering on transposing instruments is that you should be able to learn one fingering, and, by reading the music for the appropriate key, always play that note with (almost) the same fingering. When I play soprano or tenor sax (in Bb), I finger them the same as I do when I play alto or bari (in Eb). Otherwise, it would be a nightmare to switch horns.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Quote:
Probably some way to deal with the guitar and a capo but I'm no guitarist
Re the capo: Check out this rather humorous video from the incomparable Martin Taylor:
Down at Cocomo's
Trust me, it's worth your time.
(Guitarists may appreciate the capo thing more than others.)
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Steel pans on a guitar. Excellent.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Matt, I need to study the alternative fingerings, but we get a weekly lesson in what finger to use when. 3 instead of 1 and 2. 13 cents in some keys, makes it way easier to lip the note.
I'll ask Dr. Hank the keys it works best in and get back to you. But you can't go by the tempered scale. Pythagoras and his theories.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Most, not all, C trumpets play more in tune with 1 & 3 for D above middle C, then 2 & 3 for Eb, then 1 & 2 for E. Doesn't matter much what key you are in; if the note is flatter than a pancake, it's going to sound bad in any key. For most players, I think lipping up is harder than lipping down.
I never use 3 alone on a C. I use 3 alone a lot on a Bb trumpet or flugel, though, mostly for speed.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Tholse thinking that they might be able to use a C trumpet for playing pop, rock or jazz music and get away with reading the Concert keys on charts should also be informed that the C Trumpet has quite a different tonality than the Bb Trumpet and may not end up sounding all that great at the genre.
--Mac
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I can appreciate that. I have a friend who plays C-trumpet exclusively because he 'swears' by it. Evidently it was given to him after high-school. But, he's been told repeatedly that his horn is too 'bright' and truthfully I think it's cost him a gig or two -- he is a talented player. I'm not sure he can hear the difference -- even my non-musician friends can hear the difference. In fact, I've given him my Bf to try (I haven't played in years) and he himself doesn't hear a difference -- I think he's gone tone dead.
Ike
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Quote:
Guitar and B-flat trumpet are one full step (two half-steps) apart.
I'm not understanding something (par for the course). I know, my theorizing here is just MY simple mind. In my mind, the difference between B and C is one note. Now I add in the fact that B-flat is half a note / tone lower than B-natural and there ya' have it ... a difference of one and one half (1-1/2). What am I thinking here? Why do you say what you say here? Why one full step?
Ike
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Well, two half-steps equals one full step.
If you're having trouble visualizing what a half-step is, think of adjacent keys on the piano (and use the BACK of the keyboard).
From C down to B natural is a half-step.
From B natural down to Bb is a half-step.
Since a Bb horn is pitched one full step lower than concert pitch, the music written for it must be pitched one full step in the other direction (higher) to compensate.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Quote:
I can appreciate that. I have a friend who plays C-trumpet exclusively because he 'swears' by it. Evidently it was given to him after high-school. But, he's been told repeatedly that his horn is too 'bright' and truthfully I think it's cost him a gig or two -- he is a talented player. I'm not sure he can hear the difference -- even my non-musician friends can hear the difference. In fact, I've given him my Bf to try (I haven't played in years) and he himself doesn't hear a difference -- I think he's gone tone dead.
In general, you are correct. A C trumpet usually sounds both 'brighter' and 'lighter' than a Bb, assuming you can find words to quantify such things. However, individual horns make a difference. There exist darker sounding C trumpets and brighter sounding Bb horns. My Calicchio Bb is pretty bright, for example, whereas my Bach Bb is 'average'.
Also, an individual player makes perhaps even more of a difference. I will sound like me playing his horns, and he will sound like him playing my horns, at least once we are used to them.
Finally, the choice of mouthpiece makes a difference. If your friend always sounds too bright, he could explore something like a Curry TF mouthpiece, which makes a trumpet sound closer to a flugelhorn. Or a thousand other choices, each one subtle and each one expensive to experiment with unless you take a listening friend to a shop with a large selection to try. Something as small as a deeper cup on the same rim size could be all he needs. Any good teacher could help, or have him ask about it on TrumpetHerald.com
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Matt, I sure would like for you and Dr. Hank to be in the same room and have a discussion. A guy with his experience, well maybe I`m jaded or something.
He is an ex pat American, both he and his wife. He`s a Phd in horn, is wife is choral, although she is a dean now.
A kinder better teacher you would never see. I get a Master Class every Wednesday most of the year.
When we got into the discussion about mouthpieces his words were..it means nothing.. a good horn player can play with any major mouthpiece and make it sound perfect.
I`ll drag up the video of him making a horn...it`s cool. And post some more stuff with him talking to youtube.
He does travel a lot.
Look up Dr. Henry Meredith on google. He is now up to about 4500 brass instruments in his house.
Some worth 60 to 80k. But at the end of the day, he gave the wife and I an hour course in a parking lot one day. The wife plays most anything but never did a 3 valve instrument..and now he says she could be principal baritone someplace. But that`s 30 plus years of education and she can count even if it`s 22 bars at 2 2 time. Drives me nuts.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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John, I always enjoy your stories about that director. He certainly has amazing abilities, and you and your wife are very fortunate.
I'm sure he would be way over my head. I'm just a self-taught jazz player.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Okay I get it. So then in MY backward way of thinking ... Wouldn't a C-flat (yes I hear the laughter) equal / be the same as a B-natural ?
Ike
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Yes. They are enharmonic equivalents.
Be aware that BIAB does not support Cb, B#, E# or Fb.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
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Mac 2025 Special Upgrade Offers Extended Until August 15th!
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- Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano
- Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7
- Playable RealTracks Set 4
- RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark
- SynthMaster Sounds and Styles (with audio demos)
- 128 GM MIDI Patch Audio Demos.
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyles,
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster,
- Instrumental Studies Set 23: More '80s Hard Rock Soloing,
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster
- Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8
- RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®!
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Mac!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Windows!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
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