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I noticed that some choices for your key signature are: A#, D#, and G#.
None of these keys are ever found in music that I've ever seen in the last 60 years.
For example, G# would have 6 sharps and one double sharp. But A flat would be
much easier to read. If you showed G# to Hans Zimmer, he would sick his dogs on you.
And he has some really MEAN chihuahuas.
Or A# would have 4 sharps and 3 double sharps, but it does NOT when
I select it. Actually you could use the X symbol for double sharp if that's what's
really intended - it would take up less space. But why do that?
Just use B flat instead ! ! Is someone trying to be "cute?"
Susan Boyle has a piranha pool for people like that.......
As I pointed out before, it doesn't do the transposition correctly, but
even if it did, no one would be able to read it.
I'm also wondering why you have to have Cm as well as Eb.
They have the same key signature. I think it confuses the issue even further.
Another interesting thing -
You don't have an entry for C flat, which IS occasionally found in music.
Ab minor is the equivalent, but when I select that, I get 5 sharps instead.
G flat minor would give you 9 flats, but they would use F# minor instead, since
it's only 3 sharps. The idea is to make it readable.
I think the least ambiguous way to specify the key is say: "One sharp," or
"four flats." That way you only have 15 choices to worry about, and it's
precisely nailed down. So your choices are 1-7 flats, 1-7 sharps, or none.
May I suggest that someone call Eastman and have them verify what I'm saying?
There are some areas where a musically trained person would be able to resolve a
lot of these issues for you that a programmer wouldn't spot.
Last edited by BillSincl; 04/17/10 01:02 PM.
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Well, some interesting points for discussion here.
First, I'm pleased they show the relative minor as a choice of key signature. I want to know where the root is, not just the key signature.
Second, I would be OK with eliminating impractical key signatures like A#, but maybe there is someone out there who wants this, and having it can't hurt if you don't use it.
Just to be sure, going around the circle of fifths, where would you suggest drawing the line? At F# / Gb, or would you, say, allow one more in either direction: Db or B, since these are possible to be written as seven sharps or seven flats, respectively? Another way to say that is, perhaps you don't want the possibility of double sharps or double flats?
As an aside, the staff at PG Music includes some very fine musicians.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Hi matt -
Well, I did an experiment, just putting a major scale in (key of C),
and when I transpose it to D flat, half the notes are wrong. And more than half
don't even get played. These are all quarter notes in 4/4 time.
I don't have ANY objection to having double flats or sharps, but they should be CORRECT.
For example, the key signature for A# only has one double sharp, rather than 3
like it should, and that's in the wrong place. The double sharps should be on F, G, and A.
So the total number of sharps should be 10. (3*2 + 4)
When transposing any melody, there are three things that have to match:
(1) the number of accidentals are exactly the same.
(2) When the accidental RAISES the note 1/2 step, the accidental in the new key does the
same thing.
(3) When the accidental LOWERS the note 1/2 step, the accidental in the new key does the
same thing.
(4) The line spacing between successive notes is unchanged. In other words, if two notes are a
space apart, they remain that way in the new key. Likewise for a line apart, etc.
Well, maybe someone should have that choice of weird keys. But doesn't it have to be correctly done?
Wm. S. Sinclair
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BTW, I also mentioned that C flat, although it IS found in traditional music
(Chopin for example) it is not available in your choice of key signatures.
Chopin preferred that to B major for some reason.
Wm. S. Sinclair
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OK, this is closely tied to your other thread on transposition.
BIAB does not recognize Cb, B#, Fb or E#. If you enter one of these, you get the enharmonic equivalent.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Ok, but C flat IS found a lot in traditional classical music.
So why leave that out? Those other guys, well they are totally out in left field.....
Actually, you get into some trouble when you try to say C minor as opposed to
Eb major. For example the song "My Funny Valentine" starts off in C minor, but ENDS UP in Eb major. So which key is it in? Both are 3 flats.....
So - if you say 3 flats, no one will argue with that.
The trouble with being a "fine musician" is that is a lot more to music than just
blowing some choruses on a blues. A well-rounded musician also knows THEORY.
Bird (Charlie Parker) for example couldn't read a note, nor could he arrange music on the written page. Danny Elfman is a fine composer, but he has to rely upon others to transcribe his musical ideas.
This business of transposing is a THEORY question. I think the problem is the way the notes are stored. If you store them by MIDI note value, information is lost. If you play midi value 49, that could either be a C sharp or a D flat or even a B double sharp. In other words, enharmonic representations are not stored.
So if I play notes from a keyboard, the software has no way of knowing how some notes are supposed to be notated. If the note agrees with the key signature, no problem there, it just won't have any accidentals.
Where BIAB gets into trouble is: it puts accidentals there that don't belong - So the result is totally incorrect. I have noticed though, that when I put the key back to the original, it's correct again. I tried another experiment - transposing a C scale from C to F sharp. The results were a total disaster.
I'm sorry, but I just don't see how a well-rounded musician could miss something so obvious.....
Wm. S. Sinclair
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The Cb etc issue has been discussed a number of times here and we hope one day it will be resolved. There are some things you can do in BIAB for enharmonics. In the Notation Windows options, there is a check box for Use Chord Scale for Enharmonics. Play with that. Also, you can manually edit a note to force an accidental. Right click on the note and you'll see it. It won't help with the Cb issue but most of my issues were addressed using these options.
There is a difference in Cm and Eb although both have 3 flats. I've never investigated how BIAB treats them but perhaps how it handles notating them is the reason both options are there.
R
Last edited by Rachael; 04/17/10 03:58 PM.
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Well, if we were talking about different KINDS of minor scales, there would be
a difference then. For example, C mel minor only has 1 flat, which would be E flat.
C harm minor has 2 flats. Neither of these have the same key signature as Eb major.
Their scale tone intervals are different than the major key.
The melodic minor scale has three whole tone intervals spaced together, which you won't find in the major scales. Likewise, the harmonic minor scale has a minor third "skip" caused by raising the 7th tone a half step.
BIAB only allows us to use the major keys, and the equivalent (also called) natural minor key, which is simply a minor third transposition of a major scale.
Example: A minor is the same as the C major scale.
I don't have a problem with using the enharmonic mode, but the errors are much more extensive. The PITCHES are wrong, so it means a complete re-edit of the entire melody. And of course, you might have read about the unwanted extra notes.
If you have to do all that, it's less trouble to start over. Maybe put the melody into Finale, then import the MIDI file.
Wm. S. Sinclair
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Quote:
Bird (Charlie Parker) for example couldn't read a note, .....
That simply is not true.
--Mac
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Hey Bill, I just noticed your name. I know it's fairly common but are you the Bill Sinclair playing piano with Chris Beck and others around the South Bay?
The thing about transposing is when you hit the key sig box, what do you do with the prompt that pops up? Forgive me if you know this already but the problem is with a lot of downloaded Biab songs, the key sig is wrong. The chords look correct, it plays correct and you know it's in F but the key sig says C or something else equally wrong. When you click to change it to F, you have to say no to the question "OK to transpose the worksheet?" because you first have to make the key sig and the chords match. Now that the key sig says F and the chords are in F if you want to change it to Bb, hit the key sig box again, change it to Bb, say yes to the transpose question and everything is ok.
Btw, I agree with you my Biab file of Funny Valentine is in Eb, not Cm. Whether or not to use the relative minor can be tricky though. Most of the Real Book tunes use the major key but some are using the minor, it can make a difference in how the chart prints out if you need that function.
This type of theory question comes up all the time on the forum and there's quite a bunch of classically trained players, working studio pros and other very educated players here too. Same at HQ in Victoria. Google Oliver Gannon, Peters brother or Miles Black their staff pianist. Those cats are world class. It depends on perspective. To a gigging musician I think of being on the bandstand and someone calls out Footprints and you don't know it. The guitarist will say it's a blues in Cm with a flat five turnaround, he won't say it's in Eb.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Bill, what you've posted has been discussed many times over the years. You are right,except about Bird. If I need an E sharp, I'll type in an E natural and then pen in a sharp symbol. No big deal. The notation program is only a very small part of BIAB. Most of the folks here use other notation programs to print music. There are many other things that are wrong with the notation program. Just deal with the fact that it's not a full fledged notation program. Later, Ray
Asus Q500A i7 Win 10 64 bit 8GB ram 750 HD 15.5" touch screen, BIAB 2017, Casio PX 5s, Xw P1, Center Point Stereo SS V3 and EWI 4000s.
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Yes, try notating a song in 5/4 if you want to have fun. Of my several hundred jazz standards that I use, only a few (maybe 6) have notation problems like the ones discussed. If they fix it, I'll just print out the corrected leadsheet.
R
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Bill, by this point you probably feel like we are ganging up on you. Please feel free to continue the discussion.
I will just make two points (not including Charlie Parker).
One, about Cb, B#, Fb or E# I cannot dispute anyone's much better knowledge than mine of the classical repertoire, but as a composer, I encounter a need for these equally. I could not single out one of the four as being more important.
Two, Ray and Rachael's posts reminded me that one of the more fun discussions on the SONAR forum is about the need for better notation. I would have to say, despite it being among the top DAW programs, the notation is far worse than the implementation in BIAB. As Ray said, many of us use another program for notation. However, BIAB (unlike SONAR) gets better in this regard every new release. Head on over to the Wishlist and help PG Music improve the program with specific suggestions.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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>>> As I pointed out before, it doesn't do the transposition correctly
>>> I think the problem is the way the notes are stored. If you store them by MIDI note value, information is lost.
Yes, BB's tracks are MIDI information only. They don't store accidentals or other notation information.
The melodies are typically entered by people playing on a MIDI keyboard. They play in the piece, and that's it - no messing with accidentals. BB guesses at the best accidental, usually based on the current chord.
If you want a specific accidental, you can do it. Right click on the note, and force the accidental. (but not Fb Cb E# and B#)
We could improve that so that you could also make those notes on the notation in a future version.
Band-in-a-Box lacks Fb Cb E# and B# . We made the program 21 years ago, on a text only IBM-XT machine, before notation etc. As I recall, we were in 1989 running out of bits (not bytes!) in the file data format, and In a do-over, we definitely would have included those keys.
>> May I suggest that someone call Eastman and have them verify what I'm saying?
There are some areas where a musically trained person would be able to resolve a
lot of these issues for you that a programmer wouldn't spot.
I went to Berklee, so wouldn't be calling Eastman.
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.
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I went to Berklee, so wouldn't be calling Eastman.
LOL, sandals and long hair.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Well, there's Berkeley, and then there's Berklee.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Quote:
I went to Berklee, so wouldn't be calling Eastman.
LOL, sandals and long hair.
Berklee College of Music
One of the best music schools in the world.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Hi Guys -
I don't mind you're ganging up on me. It's a good thing we aren't in a physical altercation though.....
Maybe I'm wrong about "Bird," but in all the clips I have ever seen, he's standing up there without a music stand in front of him. So maybe he didn't FEEL like he needed the charts, he was such a f****** genius. Likewise for Stan Getz, although Kenton insisted that he put up a music stand for appearance's sake.
May I humbly make a suggestion for the worksheet KEY menu?
C - Am - 0# 0b
G - Em - 1#
D - Bm - 2#
A - F#m - 3#
E - C#m - 4#
B - G#m - 5#
F# - D#m - 6#
C# - A#m - 7#
Cb - Abm -7b
Gb -Ebm - 6b
Db -Bbm - 5b
Ab -Fm - 4b
Eb -Cm - 3b
Bb -Gm - 2b
F - Dm - 1b
Now this covers ALL the practical things I've ever seen. I consulted with a theoretician from around here, and at least he supports me.
If you DO want to gang up on me, can't I at last have the THEORY guys on my side?
PS: I'm am with Chris Beck's group.
Wm. S. Sinclair
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Oh sorry Mr. Theory genius. I only know a bit, but jeez, Didn't LOOK OF LOVE start out in Dm and resolve to F6? Na, I'm dreaming. So did you want it in F or Dm? Just asking.....
I think this software is not for you, it's easier to ask for a refund and just say Dr. Gannon was trained at the wrong place. Chuck M. was 1st trumpet at Eastman, or was that 2nd? hm....
Like I care...
At the end of the day, you work with who and what you have. I'm usually a 1/2 step from resolution...just fake it...
If you are in search of jazz perfection, there isn't any. Just interpretations. some good, some better, and some just make me cry.
This is a place where we are usually kinder and gentler, you started out with 6 guns a blazing, what are we supposed to do, just kick our ideas and history to the curb and throw our hands in despair and give up? Sorry if I'm a tad verbose, but I've new meds and a 50 percent chance of being around come July so to heck with it....
See you around...
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Hi Bill,
I agree with you. Practical key signatures only go up to 7 sharps and 7 flats. As you have already pointed out, after seven essentials the key signatures go into the realm of theoretical and include double-sharps and -flats. Personally, I don't worry about all those extra theoretical key signatures that are listed because all the ones that I need are included and that suits me. The rest are superfluous and I can easily ignore them. In a few posts over time, Dr Peter Gannon has indicated that notation is an area that needs addressing and I imagine that your points are already noted.
To me, BIAB is about playing music in a very practical sense and, for my purposes, it does that wonderfully well.
All the best,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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