PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Research for Thesis Project (Please Participate)

I am very interested in the methods that people use to song-write. Specifically, I believe that music creation, aside from being simply an enjoyable pastime, can and sometimes does provide a "mental out" for peoples of all generations and of all societies and I'd like to test my claim by conducting a little research here. Sorry if you feel I'm using you as a guinea pig -- it's true, I am!

As products like BIAB, RealBand, etc. help us to create music, I'm more interested in the creative part of a person's methods rather than what is done with software to create it. I'd like to know if your creation of music has a procedural system in it or if you rather enjoy haphazard creation. FYI I'm beginning some research for my college project and I haven't yet developed a thesis -- I may decide to write a thesis depending on the results of my research and how interested responders were to my questions.

Also, as I realize that many of you who participate here are professional musicians and that some of you even have music-related degrees, music awards, etc. I would like to ask that if you feel there would be additional questions that might generate some interesting results, please let me know -- I'm a musician too so I'm all ears!

I think I'd like to address this question from two angles -- Lyric Writing and then Song Writing. For these questions you may decide to generalize and this would be fine. We can assume that if someone wanted to know more details about your responses, that they could then request this from you and you would then have the option of disclosing this or not. On the other hand, I am personally very interested in reading your answers to these questions, whether I end up writing a thesis on the basis of this research or not. Thank you in advance!

Questions:
1. Lyrics - Do you have a 'standard' method (and what is it) or do you just wing it? Tell us why you prefer one way over another.
2. Song - Do you have a 'standard' method (and what is it) or do you just wing it? Tell us why you prefer one way or another.
3. Which do you prefer to do first / second -- Lyric writing or Song / Notation writing? What's the reason for your preferences?
4. What was the best song you've ever written, what was your method for it's creation and why do you feel it ranks as your best?
5. As a percentage of your total play time (your total being 100% percent), what percentage of your time would you say is spent playing your own original music (versus playback of music created by someone else).
6. Given your entire music 'world' (everything that you do around the clock pertaining to music), on a scale of one to ten (one being the most important and ten being the least), can you rate the importance of original music 'creation' by you (versus playing music already prepared by someone else).
7. How many years of your life have you been involved in learning music and playing a musical instrument?
8. Do you teach music in any capacity? How long have you been teaching? Why do you teach it? To what age groups do you teach to?
9. Do you consider your musical genre interests to be wide and/or varied or the opposite. Why do you feel that your musical genre interests are one way or another (for example, "I come from a musical family" or, "I was exposed to a wide variety of music in my youth" or, "So-and-so was my mentor", etc. etc. etc.
10. Has technology (i.e. PC's) made it easier or more difficult for you to write? Why?
11. How influential is technology to your song-writing?
12. Do you feel that with the advent of technology to music creation / production, that the technologies themselves have created a sort of cookie-cutter generation of musicians (or what is your take on this question)?

To All -- Thank you again for taking the time to read and reply to my questions! As always, a wonderful group to be part of.

Russell/Ike,

There are a few similar threads over at the www.fawm.org forums. FAWM is February Album Writing Month, encouraging participants to write 14 songs in the month of February.

There are folks there that kick out what you might expect with 2 days to get a song written, then there are others who simply knock-out pop, country, rock, punk, etc. tunes that simply sound much more mature than their 2 day's life.

You may want to join in there simply to re-post what you've posted here. There's lots of cover-only musicians here at PG forums (nothing wrong with that - but generally not songwriters), whereas the entire point of FAWM is to write new songs.

Here's the jukebox from the FAWM 2010 entries: http://fawm.org/jukebox/

It only contains 1000 of the 10121 songs created by FAWM participants in Feb 2010. Refresh the screen to get a new 1000 songs there.

Writing songs under a self-imposed timeline forces creativity (for me and from what I gather from FAWM participants) in an entirely different way than most non-professional musicians experience. We who are not gainfully employed in the music industry don't really have deadlines to get songs written and completed. A common tendency with folks like me is to let a song simmer for far too long, often getting stuck or burned up in the pot as a result. Participation in FAWM and other similar challenges/workshops can be an eye-opening experience.

Here's my responses to your questions:

1. Lyrics are always sparked by a conversation, sermon/teaching that I hear, a riveting image(s), experience from the past/present. I write out thoughts first, rhyme 2nd - relying on rhyming dictionaries and the like
2. Song - I've gotten in a rut lately of verse verse chorus verse chorus bridge chorus song structure. I play in keys comfortable to my voice and guitar and/or keys; depending on what I hear in my head.
3. When I have lyrics, I write them first. If I'm just expressing a musical mood, then I often start with the production mood I'm looking for, then craft some chord structure, then melodies (entirely backwards of what you are 'supposed' to do)
4. Percentage of playing time on original music depends on what my current responsibilities are. If I'm prepping for an originals only gig, then I would place the %-age at 80. If I'm prepping for worship leading, then that percentage flip-flops to 20%
5. 3 as a matter of creative outlet, 8 as a matter of learning new techniques
6. 32
7. I teach only upon request by potential students. Right now, I'm 'teaching' someone how to think of chord inversions with his right hand on keys and economy of motion that results in decent B3 organ and Electric Piano voicings for blues songs. He has 40+ years of playing every single 3 note right hand chord with his thumb, index, and middle finger. He simply can't smoothly riff chord progressions using just those 3 fingers. I've taught several kids the basics of guitar. The fact that all of them still play for enjoyment is fulfilling to me.
8. I'll listen to anything at least once. If I can detect either creativity or virtuosity, without offensive lyrics or simply just noise, I generally will like it and try to learn at least a little bit from it. I do have my limits. My son is listening to a band called 'August Burns Red'. Some virtuosity in complexity of rhythms, timing precision amongst band members, etc. But the 'singer' sounds like he is possessed by demons with guttural croaking and screaming being the only vocals. If they just did instrumentals, I would actually dig their whole vibe. Probably my musical mentor would be a guy who let me EQ and mix for the travelling choir I was in in High School. He taught me the basics of my way around a 32 ch Peavey live sound board and an outboard rack of gear and then used my ear to judge his mixing. Eventually he entrusted me with the task of EQing the mains for all of the different venues we played in. It was my first foray into 'critical listening', breaking down music by arrangement, effect usage, EQ, etc.

-Scott

Well, Ike

I think you should look into the various ways that successful pro songwriters do their thing day in and day out also. You may just find that it is a lot different from the ways that the amateur songwriters come up with. Not that either is wrong or anything like that. The pros typically are tasked with coming up with product X by end of time Y and that's the bottom line. Nashville pro songwriters that work for publishing houses are but one example of this. There are books on the subject to be found, in which these pros are interviewed, their methods at least outlined if not fully described, etc.

They have even developed a terminology for their methods, too.

*"Ghosting" a song.

*Collaboration

*"Forced" Collaboration

Are but three of those methods.

These are people who have managed to keep their artistic viewpoint but have also learned how to focus it much finer, the point where art meets science, if you will.


--Mac

Songwriting is spontaneously triggered by something or someone. Sometimes a phrase, a word or whatever. At the cafe, church,????? lots of places. Dry spell last longer, the longer I stay away from music and let the real world press in.
The other night on Country Memories RFD TV songwriters series, Vince Gill and others talked about there are only 6 story plots or song subject and you overlay your personal life experience to tell a story.
Right brain creates music,art, emotions, left brain tries to translate this to the rest of the world. Think of it as this, you got drunk one day and talked to a chicken about all the problems of your world, then you saw that chicken scratching in the dirt, you pick up your guitar found that beat and made a hit song, cause most have had that type of experience, mine was with an armadillo but I forgot what he said, so no hit song.
Wyndham

The method that appeals to me is one I picked up from watching a bio of Stevie Wonder. He will sit in his studio playing his keyboard with the tape running. His engineer will take notes of the time stamp when he hears something that sounds good. They will do this for hours and then later go back to those spots and listen to them together. I like that because at rehearsals or even during a break on a gig, I will just start playing a riff or chord change and start messing with it. Sometimes I will come up with something good to the point one of my friends will say "what is that?" and I'll say I'm just making it up and they will say well it's really good, don't forget it. Since nothing's being recorded, it's soon forgotten anyway but the point is at home I have set up Real Band and recorded some of my personal jams and there is some good possibilites in there. I've learned one of the oldest cliche's in the world is correct, good ideas are a dime a dozen and are worthless unless you actually do something with them and that's the problem. I probably have enough good musical ideas for 5 albums but who has time to actually work on them? Not me. Scott's advice about joining that songwriters forum, setting yourself a deadline and just getting it done is right on.

Bob

Russell,
I can easily answer this one, and it's a point you might consider. I don't write songs, I just play what others have written. I don't know what percentage of users of Band In A Box actually are songwriters, and what percentage are like me, who just use it to play back songs others have written.

Gary

Best wishes on your research.

I tried the lyric writing techniques: poetic rhymes, romance love songs, political "down with the machine" and what comes back to me is; instrumentals.

I find although I enjoy writing singable melodies, I just never found the niche to match the mood of the song with an equal lyric. So, rather than causing greater suffering in the world than there already is by my horrible lyrics and yet even worse singing voice; I took to the guitar. Now, with software like BIAB I am able to create melodies for other instruments as well. As a result, I look at it as BIAB brought a wonderful contribution to society; disabling me of the need to sing and thus write lyrics!

All that said, the method I have finally resolved upon for creating is: start with a standard chord progression and rhythm pattern against it. I play that several times to allow my mind to absorb the relationship taking place between the two.
Next, as I am listening I look for where I can tweak the existing chord progression or rhythms to enhance what I already like about the song. After this, I have now made a new friend.
I then travel with this friend for a little while listening for what I want my melody to say and with which voicing I am going to use?
Once, I have that in my head, I begin the recording process.
Then, like finishing a piece of wood I sand, and sand, add a little stain, and sand some more. Once it begins to shine I stop.
#5 - I cut my teeth on playing over my influence's material. That will always be my default because what drew me to the song is what also causes the creativity in me to write my own. So, they work hand in hand for me.
#6 - Depends on the mood I am in. My mind always is spinning its mix. And there are times when an original tune will stand out and other times when a classic tune jumps out at me.
#7 - over 40 years.
#8 - Yes. On and off for over 30 years. The best student age group I find is the one where they do not want to do anything else. Huh? Well, I have found remnants of that in almost every age group. Conversely, I also find the opposite in every age group. Hence, that is the reason I do not look at age as much as how they pass my initial quiz.
#9 - No biological relatives were musical. However, an in-law mentored me heavily in music being he himself was a recording artist that had several charted hits.
#10 - Much easier. They always show up on time.
#11 - same as #10
#12 - My biggest offense is "Rock Band". There is nothing more technologically more damaging than convincing someone they can play an instrument using Rock Band.

Cheers!
RickeG

Russell,

I've added some links here to a couple of the threads and thread categories on your topic over at the FAWM site.

http://fawm.org/forums/thread/1294/

http://fawm.org/forums/songwriting/

Make sure to check out the MUSE - a set of tools to help spark new song ideas/forms/etc. http://muse.fawm.org/

Also check out the Just Plain Folks website - another huge online community of songwriters. http://www.jpfolks.com/ TAXI site as well:

http://www.taxi.com/songwriting3/index.php?gclid=CIeXxpLG8KECFRRjnAodJm5HKA

American Songwriter magazine addresses your questions in some way, shape or form in every month's issue. And it has a mix of pros and amateurs in the articles. Mac's point about professional songwriters having to kick out a product is very interesting. I don't know that I would want to do that but I can appreciate the immediacy and urgency that deadlines have on the creative process through my participation in FAWM.

Russell,

1. Lyrics - Usually I develop something I hear from another song, something I heard or have read. I plan on doing some
collaborations in the near future.
2. Song - I like ghosting songs that I like, then change the key or tempo and melody.
3. Almost always I will develop the music first then tweak it to fit the lyrics later.
4. The best song that I have written is the one that I am working on now. I used the method about to write it. I have
the music written but am not satisfied with the lyrics. The reason that I like the song that I am working on is because
I don't usually like the ones that are finished and an unfinished song has such great potential.
5. I would say 50/50
6. 4
7. 40 years
8. I don't teach music but was the interim music minister at my church for a while and led the choir.
9. My musical genre interests are not very wide. I have the greatest desire to write and sing praise and
worship music. Even though I listened to rock when I was younger and a little country I am most influenced by
Christian music.
10. Technology has made it 100% easier for me. BIAB is what I use to write all my music. Even though I play a little
guitar I was limited to the chords that I knew and write much.
11. With technology I have the ability to put a song in BIAB and have it find the chords for me. Then I change it as
needed. Without that ability I would be limited in my writing.
12. No. There are still many different methods to create a song and pluggins to make it sound unique. IMO is has given
many people a way to release the music that has been bottled up inside them.

Is your thesis for doctoral studies?

Hi Ike,

Trying to answer you questions below. I definately like to write songs more than performing others creations.

1. Lyrics - Nope Idon't have a standard method. Most of the time I let creativity flow, but sometimes it's hard to come to lyrics and I really have to work my way towards something acceptable. The use of thesaurus is unavoidable.
2. Song - Sometimes I start with some nice chord changes, sometimes it starts with a line of text which I put to music and sometimes I hear something interesting when I;m just noodling around.
3. Same as 2.
4. I think the best songs I've written are my latest ones: 1. Let me in, 2. So easy and 3. And it takes some time. Because I have the feeling I'm still improving. There's lots of realtracks in them. With 1 I started with noodling on the piano, with 2. I started with some chords and with 3. I started with a melody line with lyrics in my head.
5. 90% is spent playing your own original music
6. I give that a 2
7. About 33 years now.
8. I don't teach music
9. I consider my musical genre interests to be very wide. Just take a listen hahaha
10. Technology has made it much much easier for me to write, because I don't need to master all instruments.
11. Technology is rather influental to my song-writing (see above)
12. I don't think so, because there are so many different genres and styles. Technology is just a tool after all.

Cheers,

Superbron

Hi ikeinblackriver, here is my answers to your questions.

1. I just wing it. Reason - I am not a word-smith, never have been and find it a chore.

2. My standard method is - pick up acoustic guitar and play various chords, in any order, just to hear what works. I also find that a song will inject into me a different melody. As an example listen to unchained melody and then just play the chords, how many songs have been spawned like that.

3. Song writing because I don't have to think too hard, it just happens.

4. My very first song called WHY . The reason - I was 54 years of age and going through a life changing period. I had never even picked up a guitar let alone played one before. Well to cut the story short, I was just learning chords - and as you do there is a lot of repetition and my mind would go into that auto-pilot mode and a melody came to me. I had never ever wrote a song before so this I think was my best one because it was my first.

5. I don't play my music a lot I just write songs when the inspiration chooses me. I play other peoples music about 80% of the time.

6. Creation would be about a 1 on your scale. It has enhanced my self esteem.

7. Only 7 years

8. No

9. I was only exposed to Country and Western music when I was a child - my father owned the radiogram - so we listed to what he wanted. In my teenage years I was listening to the usual 60's music. Beatles, Rolling Stones, Hollies, Beach boys etc.etc.
I then got married and everything changed, didn't have time for music too busy working.

10. Without Band in a Box I would never have produced such good sounding songs so yes technology has helped.

11. Band in a box is very very helpful when all you have is a chord progression and some La La La's as a melody.

12. I think for professional musicians perhaps they may think that the technologies themselves have created a sort of cookie-cutter generation of musicians but to me it has given unsurpassed fun and an understanding of something that would otherwise be foreign to me.

Best regards
Michee