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I am currently using a Ketron SD2 sound module with BIAB. Sounds OK for piano, drums, bass, not so good for brass & woodwinds. Any recommendations for something better that doesn't cost a bundle? Less than $1K?
Thanks,
MB
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Everything that I've heard from the SD2 points to having some of the best brass and woodwinds sounds in a synth. I would call them comparable to my Korg PA800.
You're not going to find anything less than $1,000 that's going to match those sounds.
Gary
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You are likely only using the GM bank on the Ketron.
The Upper Bank patches are where the horns are at, try substituting some of those.
For example, the Golden Trumpet patch easily outshines the standard GM Trumpet patch sound, etc.
Patchmaps for the SD2 are available for download on the PGMusic Support pages, one for BiaB and another for PT/RB. This makes selecting and auditioning the patches a breeze as it lists them by name and grouped by instruments.
BIG difference in the sound and realism once you get the hang of it.
GM - General MIDI - is just the standardized sound bank that allows many different users to play back MIDI files and at least hear the same basic instruments as the creator of the file wanted. Without it, there would be no Patch number standardization and one person's synth might decide that what was a Saxophone could be anything else. Upper Banks are not standardized so you would have to pick and choose for each different hardware or software synth out there.
It is worth the little bit of extra time to do so. As with anything MIDI, there will be a small learning curve to this, but once past that point it should become second nature to assign Upper Banks in order to get better sounds.
--Mac
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Curiosity.
I certainly understand the GM concept. What I don't understand is why would Ketron and others put cheesy sounds in the GM slots?
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I don't understand why you would associate "cheezy" with it.
Nobody has said that, to my knowledge.
There are just better sounds to be had in the Upper Banks of the SD2 for some of the instruments.
Since the subject here deals with horns, let's examine that aspect.
There are horns in the upper banks that feature Vibrato, something that is likely undesirable to have in the GM bank where it is not known what kind of music someone may wish to play back.
There are the "breathy" saxophones as well.
And Trumpets that feature different tones from warm to bright, some of which have a bit of Vibrato in them, as well. Again, that kind of thing does not translate well when the genre and type of music to be played back is not known.
So GM banks are typically made with instrument sounds that are more on the "generic" side so that there can be cross-compatability with all sorts of possible genres.
Think of it like the Leatherman Tool or the older Swiss Army knife analogy. I love my Leatherman Wave and go nowhere without it. Excellent compact tool for emergencies, even various everyday tasks.
Then again, I wouldn't want to try doing a valve job with it...
--Mac
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They try to create a matched set. A General soundset that will work for most stuff. A trumpet with a bunch of vibrato and lip slurs, bends etc may sound fantastic for a trumpet solo, but put a bunch of them together and you do not end up with a nice trumpet section. You need the blander sounds to mix together without clashing. A usable set.
That was one of the cool things with fonts- you could roll yer own.
GM sounds are not always cheesey, but often not the best for a particular use. They are the 'general' (generic) version.
*edit*
*guess I was typing while Mac was. At least we seem to agree basicly!
Last edited by rharv; 08/07/10 05:39 AM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Journeyman
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I've downloaded both free and professional midis with some unbelievable horn sections.
My Roland SC-88 sounds great and I can only imagine what the Ketron would sound like.
If you look at the events list of the tracks, there are numerous midi controllers applied to just one note to achieve a very realistic sound. No idea how they do it.
Percy
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Being familiar with each horn's sound and capabilities, and knowing how to use the available MIDI tools (controllers) does help a ton with the facade. The samples can only take you so far on their own. Replicating a live musician on their preferred insrument is a big challenge. They use tons of nuances that may not get noticed at first.
Example - Sanborn often slides up to notes slightly, and his tone is very recognizable. Expecting a generic sax sample to replicate that is not realistic. BTW I have a sample set of his sound. Just getting that nasally tone alone makes it seem more more real for his style, but a ton of controllers are indeed needed to finish it off..
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Thanks for the suggestions. I will experiment more with voice banks of the SD2. I think it's OK for what I mostly use it for - practicing.
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I installed the patch map and in certain instances, there are better sounding instruments to choose from. You need to choose the best patch for each specific application which is OK.
Thanks.
MB
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TIP:
When there is a horn *section* in your MIDI tracks, Trumpet, Sax or Bone, try invoking a *different* virtual player for each "member" of the section.
For example, Placing that Golden Trumpet on the lead, the generic GM Trumpet on the "second chair" - perhaps the bright trumpet on the third chair, etc. can go a long way towards sounding more like separate characters in a section without resorting to the entry of all those CC's and the like.
The above is one place where the SD2 really shines.
--Mac
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Mac & Gary have it right!
The Ketron SD2 is just about the best for lots of sounds (orchestral and jazz/pop).
It has the only decent Breathy Tenor Sax
Best jazz Clarinet in the upper range
Best Violin and Viola
Best Trumpet (Golden Trumpet)
Excellent Flute
When I say best I mean of all of the many hardware synths I have ever played or listened to whenever solo samples were available on websites, over the last 15 years.
Furthermore I am talking about playing brass and wind on a wind controller live which has more demands than if you play with a keyboard or play back from notation program with keyswitching.
Although the Garritan libraries sound great when painstakingly written out and tweaked note by note -they are often disappointing when you try to play them live on a wind controller.
Now if you want the absolute best Trumpet and Trombone sounds - there is nothing as good as the sounds from samplemodeling.com. It leaves everything in the dust as far as authenticity of sound, responsiveness and playability on a wind controller.
It's obviously great when played with a keyboard.
I have not had a chance to really test Wallander sounds which a number of people have said is very good.
In summary, for a hardware synth, especially one at such a bargain price there is nothing that compares to the Ketron SD2 as far as acoustic sounds are concerned.
On a number of the newer Roland synths including the SC-88 etc. I do like the Kawal patch quite a bit and sadly there is nothing quite like it on the SD2.Mac has it right.
The Ketron SD2 is just about the best for lots of sounds.
It has the only decent Breathy Tenor Sax
Best jazz Clarinet in the upper range
Best Violin and Viola
Best Trumpet (Golden Trumpet)
Excellent Flute
When I say best I mean of all of the many hardware synths I have ever played or listened to whenever solo samples were available on websites.
Furthermore I am talking about playing brass and wind on a wind controller live which has more demands than if you play with a keyboard or play back from notation program with keyswitching.
Although the Garritan libraries sound great when painstakingly written out and tweaked note by note -they are often disappointing when you try to play them live on a wind controller.
Now if you want the absolute best Trumpet and Trombone sounds - there is nothing as good as the sounds from samplemodeling.com. It leaves everything in the dust as far as authenticity of sound, responsiveness and playability on a wind controller.
It's obviously great when played with a keyboard.
I have not had a chance to really test Wallander sounds which a number of people have said is very good.
In summary, for a hardware synth, especially one at such a bargain price there is nothing that compares to the Ketron SD2 as far as acoustic sounds are concerned.
On a number of the newer Roland synths including the SC-88 etc. I do like the Kawal patch quite a bit and sadly there is nothing quite like it on the SD2.v
Last edited by Dan Tong; 08/07/10 09:17 PM.
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re - TIP:
"When there is a horn *section* in your MIDI tracks, Trumpet, Sax or Bone, try invoking a *different* virtual player for each "member" of the section.
For example, Placing that Golden Trumpet on the lead, the generic GM Trumpet on the "second chair" - perhaps the bright trumpet on the third chair, etc. can go a long way towards sounding more like separate characters in a section without resorting to the entry of all those CC's and the like.
The above is one place where the SD2 really shines. "
Q - So if I have a brass rythym section in a song, I need to have a separate midi track for each member if I want to mix and match different types of trumpets etc.? Most of everything I have done so far has just been BIAB stuff, mostly backing tracks. Any way to get a good sounding brass section in there without midi tracks? Or do I need to use a combo of midi & BIAB? It would be nice to have some Ketron presets to choose from that mixed & matched trumpets etc.
Thanks,
MB
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Well, even in BiaB, if you are hearing different Patches from the "horn section" - then they are on different MIDI channels.
Changing the Patch on each MIDI channel then is easy.
There aren't any presets for that inside the SD2, this should be done by the host software.
Are you using MIDI files? If so, in BiaB, you can change the Patch for each instrument by hitting the big round green SEQ button. Should be self-explanatory from there.
--Mac
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I have not been using midi files but it looks like they will give me more flexibility. I've been trying to avoid the extra complexity and learning curve but I guess there's no free lunch.
Thanks,
MB
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BTW - I have been using an old version of BIAB and just upgraded to the latest verion that includes RB. I'm hoping that will make the inclusion and manipulation of midi files a little easier with BIAB.
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Quote:
I have not been using midi files but it looks like they will give me more flexibility. I've been trying to avoid the extra complexity and learning curve but I guess there's no free lunch.
Thanks,
MB
Even so, if you hear different horns then they have to be being sent on different MIDI channels and changing them would be much the same. If using the BB MIDI harmonizer, then you may have to resort to some Event List edits or the like, though. Once you get the thing down, though, you can create a Custom Harmony file or two that already has those patches embedded, and just choose the custom harmony you want to get the upper banks instruments playing.
--Mac
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I have not spent any time with the harmonizer. That will be next on my list. Thanks.
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So what track or tracks in BB is your horn section on?
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I have been simply selecting brass patches in place of strings or piano for selected styles where it will work. But you don't have control over the individual brass patches. Not the greatest but it's fast an easy. RB will probably give me more options and I will revisit downloading midi tracks and use the extended patches of the Ketron. I think the extra effort will be worth it once I'm past the initial learning curve. I have watched a couple of YouTube videos on RB and I should have the s/w upgrade soon.
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