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I am leading worship at a small church where we have a limited number of instrumentalists and sometimes all of them cannot particpate. I have several questions about what might work best for my set-up. Here are some of the details:
1. I want to have midi or audio tracks which can be brought in or muted seperately. Let's say the person on bass cannot be there for a Sunday. I would like to be able to bring the track up for just bass. There will be other times when it will just be me with guitar and the pianist or myself and the drummer. I would like to add in instruments as needed.
2 I have several choices. I have a laptop and have purchsed Cakewalks V-20. Once I create the tracks I believe I can control them by using the VS-20 as a controller for the volumes and just pull the sliders up and down that are needed.
3. I have wondered about just putting everything in audio and just using one of the smaller digital recorder/mixers to control things.
4. I have been looking at the Roland Mobile Sound canvas but cannot get a solid handle on A. Whether it would add anyting flexibility wise to the solution. B. What types of sounds does it really have. I have been comparing it as best as possible on line to the Ketron. It appears from my limited availability to demonstrations that the Ketron is a little stronger in acoustic sounds where the Roland has more lush piano's and synth sounds. I really wish there were a standard soundfile that companies would use to demonstrate. There is not any chance someone could provide and MP3 of both the Mobile Sound Canvas and the Ketron performing the same song for me to get a better idea is there? I do mostly Southern Gospel and Praise and Worship stuff so it is very Guitar, Bass and Keyboard focused.
Anyway I thought I would just put this out here as I know some of you have some pretty deep experience with this type of thing and could give me some things to think about.
Hope everyone has a very Merry Christmas!
TerryB
Windows 10, Dell 8700 XPS i7, 12MB Ram.
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Quote:
I am leading worship at a small church where we have a limited number of instrumentalists and sometimes all of them cannot particpate. I have several questions about what might work best for my set-up. Here are some of the details:
1. I want to have midi or audio tracks which can be brought in or muted seperately. Let's say the person on bass cannot be there for a Sunday. I would like to be able to bring the track up for just bass. There will be other times when it will just be me with guitar and the pianist or myself and the drummer. I would like to add in instruments as needed.
Actually, Band in a Box can do all of that from the laptop for you, with a little bit of setup and learning curve on your part.
*Each Auto-accompaniment track can be MUTED for an entire session through use of Mouse or Keyboard Shortcuts. If the bass player shows up, simply Mute the Bass part for that session, etc. Of course, you would have to spend some time at home or in the studio to create those Band in a Box accompaniments for your songs, typing in the chords, setting up the choruses and choosing a Style for each song, but once saved, they are there and ready to go when needed.
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2 I have several choices. I have a laptop and have purchsed Cakewalks V-20. Once I create the tracks I believe I can control them by using the VS-20 as a controller for the volumes and just pull the sliders up and down that are needed.
That may be another way to accomplish the same thing, but be advised that the V-Studio 20 wasn't really designed for the purpose. It is likely better suited for recording a guitar with its built-in COSM modeling effects. Of course, someone familiar with it might be able to come up with some workarounds for using it in live performance like you describe.
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3. I have wondered about just putting everything in audio and just using one of the smaller digital recorder/mixers to control things.
Your problem with this one would be that you would have to have separate audio tracks for each instrument in order to be able to cut one or more out of the mix as needed. That means two things that add to the complexity - and expense - First one being you would need a multiple output sound device that featured a separate audio output for each track if you intend to control via audio mixer, or a software program that had a virtual software mixing environment in it such that you could easily Mute those tracks. BAND IN A BOX would still be my preferred choice here.
Quote:
4. I have been looking at the Roland Mobile Sound canvas but cannot get a solid handle on A. Whether it would add anyting flexibility wise to the solution. B. What types of sounds does it really have. I have been comparing it as best as possible on line to the Ketron. It appears from my limited availability to demonstrations that the Ketron is a little stronger in acoustic sounds where the Roland has more lush piano's and synth sounds. I really wish there were a standard soundfile that companies would use to demonstrate. There is not any chance someone could provide and MP3 of both the Mobile Sound Canvas and the Ketron performing the same song for me to get a better idea is there? I do mostly Southern Gospel and Praise and Worship stuff so it is very Guitar, Bass and Keyboard focused.
My advice to you here is to not sweat these issues for right now. Get a MIDI solution and get started. Band in a Box ships with some fairly decent sounding software MIDI synths, but also there are the REALTRACKS, which for accompaniment in your chosen genre and use, are simply amazing, sounding like what they are, real instruments played by real pro players. The only thing that RealTracks can not do for you is to make those cuatom riffs or melodic lines that certain songs may have in them, easily overcome by playing that part yourself while the RealTracks accompany you.
What you want to do is possible to do with BiaB, matter of fact there are quite a few folks doing exactly that already. Band in a Box also has a "Conductor" feature, which, when learned and used, can allow for the selection of chorus repeats, jump to ending, jump back to beginning, etc. "on the fly" - I've used it in Worship Services while still managing to play the piano keyboard at the same time, with my laptop sitting on the piano's musicboard.
Merry Christmas!
--Mac
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Citaat:
What you want to do is possible to do with BiaB, matter of fact there are quite a few folks doing exactly that already. Band in a Box also has a "Conductor" feature, which, when learned and used, can allow for the selection of chorus repeats, jump to ending, jump back to beginning, etc. "on the fly" -
BiaB absulutely is the best solution in your situation.
It is however very importand that the rest of the band/orchestra plays dead on time. It will be neccecary to get your drummer on a click-track. He/she has to be able to hear the count-in and keep the tempo steady for the whole song.
It would be wise to make the BiaB files with an extra count-in bar. This way the drummer has a change to pick up the tempo AND do an audible count in for the rest of the band.
Last edited by Mike sings; 12/26/10 07:08 AM.
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Thanks, Mac and Mike:
Sometimes I amaze myself with how difficult I can make things. Now that you both have pointed out I can do that on BIAB I feel a little foolish. I think I have a bad case of always wanting more.
Mac, I understand what you are saying about real-tracks but sometimes I like some of the Midi styles or parts in BIAB which I think might benefit from a better sound module. That is why the interest in the SD2 and Mobile Canvas. Would you mind giving me your insight as I know you have looked at both of these and let me know your opinions of what might work best in my style of music. If as an example you took your user submission on the Ketron site and played it through the Mobile Canvas do you think it would sound as good as it does on the Ketron.
Merry Christmas to both of you and thanks for bringinb back to reality!
Thanks,
Terry
TerryB
Windows 10, Dell 8700 XPS i7, 12MB Ram.
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Quote:
If as an example you took your user submission on the Ketron site and played it through the Mobile Canvas do you think it would sound as good as it does on the Ketron.
Terry,
I like to think that I can use my hard-earned MIDIOT skillz to good advantage on either one!
There may be a case where the songfile for each may need to be tweaked to match the chosen device and IMO is only normal use of the thing.
IMO the thing cannot be as simple as the comparison you desire, and for good reason.
Something like that kind of test would only be fair if you invoked a GM patch set from each synth - but then you would only be comparing the rather limited sounding GM banks in each, neglecting those many UPPER bank patches available.
The GM bank I typically use just for screening MIDI files, listening to downloaded files "as-is" in order to see if the songfile has merit. If it does, I'M aoon replacing a lot if not all of the GM patches with patches selected from the Upper Banks of the SD-2.
For example, the typical trumpet section does not have four identical sounding trumpet players in it, as the
GM bank would impose. So substituting the Trumpet patch for three of them can yield a more realistic sounding section.
Or perhaps the Clean Guitar GM patch does not have a sound that is as desirable as one of the electric guitar patches on one of the Upper Banks. Or keyboards, or wind instruments or what have you.
As for the two hardware MIDI units you are talking about, both are quite nice and both feature newer technology and samples. I am using the SD2 (and SD4) here (plus a shelf full of older MIDI boxes and keyboards as well), I don't have hands on experience with the other one you mention. If I ever got one, I'd likely take the exact same approach with it, which would involve experimenting with the Upper Bank patches and such, until such time as the learning curve for the new set of sounds allows me to be able to select those patches with some modicum of knowledge as to what to do and when.
The idea that one can audition two synths with only one MIDI file, or a handful, doesn't take these issues into account and therefore IMO doesn't really have merit, excepting, of course, those conditions where you might pit a much less expensive GM bank against one of the higher end synths such as the two you are interested in.
All that said, I DO like my Ketron SD2 a lot, for reasons of sound quality plus its small form factor, that wee box travels easily in the laptop case and takes up very little real estate when using it in live performance. And it sounds purty good if you do your part of the MIDIOT thang well enough.
Your perceived issues won't get you there, my friend.
The only thing that will get you "there" is for you to knuckle down and get started in working up those songs with BiaB. Heck, I often use the VSC DXi synth (on the XP laptop) with the same songfiles when called upon to perform the "hit and run" gig - and the songs played still sound good enough.
USE WHAT YOU HAVE.
When the day comes where you might pick up a better sounding hardware MIDI synth - of any type or brand - the songs you have created already should sound okay using those same songfiles, or at the worst case, you may decide to revisit those files and tweak a few of the patches to run the Upper Banks. Neither situation is time lost.
--Mac
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Thanks Mac, Your advice as always is useful. What you say makes sense. Maybe more time working with Real Tracks and Real Band would be a better use of time. (And a lot less expensive  ) I do have to say though everytime I listen to the Ketron demo's I do get a we little bit of gear lust. Happy New Year! Terry
TerryB
Windows 10, Dell 8700 XPS i7, 12MB Ram.
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Terry,
I thought I had replied to this post but I don't see evidence of it.
I can't bring any advice about MIDI setup and what not. You're in great hands with the advice already given.
I would like to challenge you to think of your situation from a different angle.
I have led worship in many different situations - some with success, and others without, earlier in my life.
There's what I would call a trap in leading worship. Please don't think of it as a performance. That's the trap.
Here's one very concise definition of worship I read in a magazine long ago and I constantly go back to it whenever I'm called to lead worship, or when I hear people complaining about worship at their church.
Wrong Definition:
God is the Prompter
Congregation is the Audience
Worship leader/team are the Performers
Right Definition:
God is the Audience
Congregation are the Performers
Worship leader/team are the Prompters
No matter what style of music or spoken word is being used - when people get that definition mixed up and think that it's the first definition, that's when problems occur with hurt feelings, 'I don't like that kind of music' attitudes, etc.
Worship is not about us - whether we are the leaders or the congregation. It is an offering to God. God is the audience.
It should be skillfully played. That's scriptural. Doesn't say what kind of music or how you go about it.
Your other option with limited instrumentalists is simply to 'Run what you brung'. If that means it's just you and a piano or guitar - then that's what you use. Skillfully played, as an offering. K.I.S.S. principle applies here as well.
There's a good chance the technology 'solution' might actually be a distraction to some in your congregation and accomplish exactly the opposite of what your goal should be - engaging your congregation in offering a gift of worship to God.
If you do decide to go a technology route, then you probably need to practice how to run that by yourself so it is completely unnoticeable to the congregation. It should be a smooth as a one-handed capo change on a guitar, or a simple preset change on a keyboard between songs. You should be able to talk or sing naturally while going through song changes, repeats of song sections, etc. No fumbling with buttons and mouse movements, menu picks, volume adjustments, etc.
You should be engaged with the congregation, not your sheet music, your computer, your CD player, etc.
Well, that's it from me - I just wanted to offer you a little different perspective on what your real solution might be.
-Scott
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