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Joined: Aug 2009
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Quote:
i just want to use the software to make music. It is not a graphic program, it is a music creation tool, I don't need my hammer to sparkle or shine just drive nails!!!
+1
Also designing a GUI is sort of like farming turkeys, move the water trough to the other side of the pen and the turkeys will die of thirst. (... or so the story goes...) BIAB has a large existing install base so any changes to the interface should to be phased in gradually.
Not a request but more of a suggestion - keep the existing layout, but explore the idea of converting the GUI to WPF. Over the long run it I think it would save on maintenance costs, and probably increase stability along the way.
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I'm very much in favour of decluttering, dockable toolbars, more scroll options, better menus and colour co-ordination etc. The melodist and soloist screens are good cases in point. These are really difficult to look at and could have clearer headings leading your eye into different groups of functions.
The point about BIAB's limited arrangement functions being more important then the GUI is well made. The decision to go down the route of audio realism disguises the lack of development in the program's core midi functionality.
For example a lot could be done to improve the style editor including
..longer pattern sequences (why only two bars). Its not only in modal jazz tunes that musicians think in these longer sequences.
..more than one dedicated pattern chain
..global note mapping for altering voicings
..better and more varied chord masks
..abilty to determine what scales the chords are embellished by
Chord options could have
...a funtion to determine the direction (up or down) of the outer voices (bass and top note of chord) in relation to the previous chord.
...An option to include the alternate bass note in the piano voicing as is available in other auto accompaniment programs.
The option to allow/disallow embellishments in settings for this song should actually work and not be overriden by the command in the style editor.
Realism issues could be addressed by upping the resolution of the midi, allowing 8th resolution chords shots and holds that actually sound as 8ths.
i haven't even begun to mention the everyday commands such as the (in)ability to cut and paste on the chord sheet!! ... come on guys!! the lack of multiple undos. the inability to drag more than one note to a new location in the style maker......
These are just a few of the things BIAB could and should focus on imo.
After all just how many real tracks and real drums can you come out with at any one time relative to all the styles that exist in midi?
Regards
Alan
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There's some simple things that could be done to improve the UI of the program even if you're not going to completely change it. A good example is dialogs like this (I don't have BIAB 2010 but I'm assuming the dialog hasn't changed) http://www.pgmusic.com/images/bb2007_screenshot4.gifThe layout is amateurish. Now I know there's going to be a lot of long-term users that jump to the defence of BIAB but please understand this is an attempt to help pgmusic improve their product. There's good reasons to have a layout that is well-aligned, it actually makes the dialog easier to read/use, this is a well established principle in professional software design. A simple analogy is the use of text alignment in newspapers and books which aids in readability. The UI in BIAB has actually been used in computer software books as examples of how NOT to design dialogs, I think this is a sad state of affairs for pgmusic and what's worse is the small amount of time it would take to correct these sorts of things shows a lack of pride and professionalism at pgmusic.
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Quote:
The UI in BIAB has actually been used in computer software books as examples of how NOT to design dialogs, ...
Care to cite reference, please?
No offense, but these days, it seems that 87% of all stats are being made up on the spot...
--Mac
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I read that book ten years ago.
Anything else you can cite, particularly one that is current?
BIAB 2026 Win Audiophile. Software: Fender Studio One 8, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Fender Quantom HD8 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Quote:
I read that book ten years ago.
Anything else you can cite, particularly one that is current?
So you're saying that because the book is old the principles no longer apply and BIAB can ignore it?
I don't agree. There's been no change in thinking about these issues and the screen snap I linked to shows that these problems are still in the product. What's worrisome is that the book is 10 years old and BIAB still has these problems.
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I must say I think jr has a point. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for some slick, ultra-modern eye-candy piece of CPU and memory hogging kind of UI that loses functionality 'cos you can no longer find anything - a la Office 2007/vista/Win7. No, rather, just some attention to detail and a more regular, logical layout. My own experience is that you "get used" to it, but that really isn't good enough. I like BIAB, haven't looked at RB yet 'cos I really don't have the need. BIAB does far more than my current requirements as it is really just a sophisticated rehearsal tool for me. I don't even use the notation editor because, despite its supporters, I still reckon it is far too mouse oriented. So if I need a melody, I create it in NWC, export as MIDI and import - WA-A-AY quicker for me. And before I get jumped on, I realise I have zero studio experience, zero music (electronic) production experience, and probably zero other "important" areas of background to really "appreciate" what BIAB can do. That's all irrelevant. Two years ago I was a newbie to the product. I still am... Why? My time is limited, I need a product that is quick and easy to learn or it will take literally years for me to get up to speed. This is how BIAB is for me. In fairness, I'm having to learn more than just how to use the product, there's all that background mentioned above I somehow need to make up for too. BUT, if the UI were to be improved then my learning curve would be more of a mountain and less of a sheer precipice to ascend... Unfortunately, I'm at a loss to explain HOW to really improve it because I still haven't come to grips with all the functionality of BIAB. Like Mac says, I don't know what it is that I don't know, and the UI is making it harder for me to leap that particular hurdle. RB appears to be the same in important areas, let me cite an example from just this morning (my time): From the Windows 7 Oddities thread in the RB forum: Quote:
Hi Andrew,
Thanks for the feedback! After heeding your advice, I've seen the following changes in the StyleList.
Real Styles 264 increased to 344
Styles with RealTracks 765 increased to 857
Styles with RealDrums 755 stayed at 755
Are you or anyone else able to confirm that the numbers of RealTrack styles are correct now?
Hi rharv,
Thanks for wading in. I believe the situation you describe is exactly what happened to me. I don't typically launch a program from the install, but I'm pretty sure I did in this case. Figures!
Glen
Looked interesting so I scrolled up to find what Andrew had said:
Quote:
Quote:
As far as the missing styles go, I fixed that myself. I missed one of the 14 RealTrack DVDs during the install. This is a summary of the RealTrack styles now, does this sound right?
That looks pretty close. Open the RealTracks window, and then check the box 'Show styles that are NA' at the bottom. Do you have any N/A (not available) instruments? This is a good way to verify that you have all of the RealTracks to date. If you have any N/A, you could sort then by Set number (by clicking at the top of that column) and see if there is a particular set you are missing.
Once you have done that, I would next download the latest RealTracks update for sets 67-82 to make sure you aren't missing any of the latest .STY files. There were some .STY (Band-in-a-Box styles) added after the initial release.
http://www.pgmusic.com/support_windows_realdrums.htm#RealTracks67-82
Seems reasonable? Does to me, so I thought I check it out on my own copy of RB - just out of curiosity - can someone PLEASE tell me where to find
Quote:
Open the RealTracks window, and then check the box 'Show styles that are NA' at the bottom.
'cos it sure ain't obvious to me... I've searched every menu and button I can find and the closest thing there is to anything that resembles something associated with "Styles" is the button with the ellipses (...) next to the style name field. This thing takes you to an open file dialogue so's you can go find a style by name - OK if you know the name of what you want but useless to me...
To make matters worse, how do you select a style in the way you can in BIAB - I found it by accident - you click on the style field itself, not a button, and it still doesn't have what I'm looking for...
I'm sorry guys, but this UI is too "existing user" oriented. If you know your way round it's probably easy, if you're brand new to things PGMusic it's near impossible. UI's should be as intuitive as possible - the CUI (Common User Interface) standard was created for a reason (though m$ seem to be moving away from it with Office 2k7 etc.) - as a seasoned computer user (over 25 years as a professional in the game) I should be able to get reasonable functionality without going anywhere near a user guide. The guide should only be necessary for me when I start to get into the more complex and/or esoteric features - not the BASICS.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya  --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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I thought he made a good point also, and he did back up his claim with a cited reference.
But I still think he went over the line with that last personal attack.
"lack of pride and professionalism"
He was doin' just fine up to the end.
There's no need to take it to down to that level like that.
--Mac
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Hi, Lawrie - Does this help? Look at the bottom left. 
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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G'day John, thanks mate, that's it. My problem was I didn't know I needed and thus couldn't find how to get to the: "Assign RealTracks to Track" dialogue. Even after you showed me the dialogue (above) I still had trouble 'cos it's called: "Select and Generate RealTrack..." in the context menu, and seems to be only accessible from the context menu. That in itself isn't so bad, but... While I'm happy to admit some of this is pure ignorance on my part, surely the context menu option and the resultant dialogue title could match? Or am I just being plain thick? Then, you do get into the dialogue, select a style and where's the OK button? Huh? What the? Ok I'll just close it and see what happens - Oh, whaddya know, that did it. It should have an OK button. Now that I know there'll be no more confusion, but it cost me unnecessary time before I gave up and closed the dialogue, only to have it do what I was looking for... This is an unfriendly dialogue. It should have a cancel button tooThere is no doubt in my mind that BIAB and RB are amazingly powerful and versatile products, and I'm happy to concede that power brings, of necessity, complexity. But there is no need to add to the complexity by having inconsistencies and non compliance with standards in the UI. E.G in my previous missive I noted that access to style selection in RB is by clicking in the style name field - in BIAB there is a button to open the selection dialogue - why the difference? They both should have buttons for that task - that would be consistent with the CUA standard... /grumble  <edit> corrections and changes in italics.
Last edited by Lawrie; 01/14/10 03:59 AM.
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Hi, Lawrie -
Okay, I'm not defending the choices made about the UI, but here's my take on it.
RB's roots are from PowerTracks, not BIAB and have some BIAB features (added fairly recently).
For style selection, you can also click on the style name field in BIAB, and you can get into the style selection dialog there (although you get a menu first in BIAB; in RB you go right into it). So in that sense, they're not so different. But of course you have to know to do it that way. Buttons would probably be better. But they do share a common way of accessing the style selection dialog, just not the one that you intuitively expect.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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G'day John, Quote:
<snip>
But they do share a common way of accessing the style selection dialog, just not the one that you intuitively expect.
(bolding and underline mine)
That's just my point. I recognise the relationships between the products though I don't have personal experience with Power Tracks, and the benefits of maintaning familiar things. However, the UI should be as intuitive as possible.
I really can't imagine how huge a task it would be to "fix" the UI. It certainly wouldn't be trivial, but why not look at a series of updates over the next few releases to spread the pain? This would also enable users to grow accostomed to the updates in a measured way as well. Ultimately new users will be presented with a less daunting UI and will be able to concentrate on their projects rather than on how to use the product.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Quote:
Quote:
I read that book ten years ago.
Anything else you can cite, particularly one that is current?
So you're saying that because the book is old the principles no longer apply and BIAB can ignore it?
I don't agree. There's been no change in thinking about these issues and the screen snap I linked to shows that these problems are still in the product. What's worrisome is that the book is 10 years old and BIAB still has these problems.
jr335, I didn't say that at all.
But, you said "computer software books" (plural) and I'm simply asking if you have more examples to back up your statement. I enjoyed reading the book you cited and am interested in reading more about this topic.
BIAB 2026 Win Audiophile. Software: Fender Studio One 8, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Fender Quantom HD8 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Quote:
But, you said "computer software books" (plural) and I'm simply asking if you have more examples to back up your statement. I enjoyed reading the book you cited and am interested in reading more about this topic.
Sorry I was expecting to get jumped on for criticizing BIAB as usually happens here. I should have been specific, it's only the book I quoted as far as I'm aware.
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Fair and constructive criticism of the program is welcome here, and can even garner support and cause positive change.
Exaggerated criticism, and making it appear someone said something they did not, will indeed get jumped on, as it should.
I accept your apology about the exaggeration.
BIAB 2026 Win Audiophile. Software: Fender Studio One 8, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Fender Quantom HD8 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Would we lose BiaB's very nice standalone ".exe" configuration that allows us to delete its folder or copy overtop for upgrades without losing anything by development moving to these "better" GUI tools.
In a lot of cases, I'm afraid that may be the case.
Just something else to add to the design decision table's list of inputs.
--Mac
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Apprentice
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an easy way around the gui discussion would be to use "themes" whereby you can pick the one that you like. I know that you can customise the colors in biab, but a few built in themes wouldn't go amiss.
Paddy
Paddy McGurk,
Liverpool,
Don't mention the Beatles!!
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Enthusiast
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Wait a minute Matt. Do you in turn apologize to jr335 and the rest of us for maintaining and propagating the wretched GUI cited in GUI Bloopers? Just asking... 
Last edited by bonecall; 01/23/10 05:25 AM.
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I think that if any apology is due here, it should come from jr335, who typed an unwarranted personal attack concerning the pgmusic development staff.
"a lack of pride and professionalism at pgmusic"
Not from Matt, certainly.
--Mac
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Last Chance! The Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® Special Ends Today (May 31, 2026) at 11:59pm PDT!
Time really is running out! Save up to 50% on Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® upgrades and receive a FREE Bonus PAK—only when you order by 11:59 PM PDT today!
We've added many major new features and new content in a redesigned Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
Version 2026 introduces a modernized GUI redesign across the program, with updated toolbars, refreshed windows, smoother workflows, and a new Dark Mode option. There’s also a new side toolbar for quicker access to commonly used windows, and the new Multi-View feature lets you arrange multiple windows as layered panels without overlap, making it easier to customize your workspace.
Another exciting new addition is the amazing new AI-Notes feature, which can transcribe polyphonic audio into MIDI. View the results in notation or play them back as MIDI, and choose whether to transcribe an entire track or transcribe specific parts like drums, bass, guitars/piano, or vocals. There's over 100 new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®.
There's an amazing collection of new content too, including 202 RealTracks, new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two RealDrums Stems sets, and much more!
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Band-in-a-Box® 2026 Mac Special Offers Extended Until May 31st!
Good news- we've extended our Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® special offers until May 31, 2026!
Band-in-a-Box® 2026 is packed with major new features, enhancements, and an incredible lineup of new content! The program now sports a sleek, modern GUI redesign across the entire interface, including updated toolbars, refreshed windows, smoother workflows, a new dark mode option, and more. The brand-new side toolbar provides quicker access to key windows, while the new Multi-View feature lets you arrange multiple windows as layered panels without overlap, creating a flexible, clutter-free workspace. We have an amazing new “AI-Notes” feature. This transcribes polyphonic audio into MIDI so you can view it in notation or play it back as MIDI. You can transcribe an entire track (all pitched instruments and drums) or focus on individual parts like drums, bass, guitars/piano, or vocals. There's an amazing collection of new content too, including 202 RealTracks, new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two RealDrums Stems sets, and much more!
There are over 100 new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®.
When you order purchase Band-in-a-Box® 2026 before 11:59 PM PDT on May 31st, you'll also receive a Free Bonus PAK packed with exciting new add-ons.
Check out the Band-in-a-Box® for Mac packages page to find the best package for you.
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Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac - Special Offers End at 11:59pm PDT on Friday, May 15th, 2026!
Order before 11:59pm PDT on Friday, May 15th and SAVE up to 50% on most Band-in-a-Box® version 2026 for Mac Upgrade packages... and that's not all! With your version 2026 for Mac purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons FREE! Upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks... that's 222 NEW RealTracks available with version Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac!
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202 New RealTracks Released with Band-in-a-Box 2026!
With Band-in-a-Box® 2026, we've released 202 incredible new RealTracks (in sets 468-488) in a variety of genres—featuring your most requested styles!
Jazz, Funk & World (Sets 468-475):
Our new jazz, funk & blues RealTracks include a groovin’ collection of RealTracks and RealDrums! These include more requested “soul jazz” RealTracks featuring artists Neil Swainson (bass), Charles Treadway (organ), Brent Mason (guitar), and Wes Little (drums). There are new “smooth jazz” styles (4), which include a RealTracks first: muted trumpet, as well as slick new smooth jazz brushes options for drums. Blues lovers will be thrilled—there are more “classic acoustic blues” styles, including guitar (5), bass (4), and drums (10) with blues master Colin Linden, featuring understated and tasty background acoustic soloing, plus brushes drums and acoustic bass. There are also new electric blues RealTracks, including electric blues with PG favorite Johnny Hiland (3) and soulful electric slide guitar from Colin Linden (4). If you love funk & gospel, there are great new options this year, including gospel organ (3) from Charles Treadway, as well as new funk, tango, and rock ’n’ roll drums (3) and bass (1). And for big, bold arrangements, we have uptempo soul horns (4) featuring a three-part hip horn section with options for a full mix or stems of each individual horn — plus an accompanying rhythm section (4) of drums, bass, guitar, and electric piano!
Rock & Pop (Sets 476–482):
Our new rock & pop RealTracks bring a powerful mix of requested favorites, fresh genres, and modern chart-inspired styles! We have more of our popular “Producer Layered Acoustic Guitars (15)” featuring Band-in-a-Box favorite Brent Mason. We’ve continued our much-requested disco styles (10), and added new Celtic guitar (5) with a more basic, accessible approach than our previous Drop-D or DADGAD offerings. There are also highly requested yacht rock styles (17), inspired by the smooth, polished soft-rock sound of the late ’70s and early ’80s — laid-back grooves, silky electric pianos, warm textures, elegant harmonic movement, and pristine production aesthetics. Fans of heavier styles will love our new glam metal (13), capturing the flashy, high-energy sound of ’80s arena-ready guitar rock. We also have a set of rootsy modern-folk rock (18), with a warm, organic sound combining contemporary folk textures and driving acoustic strumming. And we’ve added lots of new modern pop styles (16) — the kinds of sounds you’re hearing on the radio today, featuring exciting new drums, synths, and cutting-edge RealTracks arrangements.
Country, & Americana (Sets 483–488):
Our new country & Americana RealTracks deliver a rich collection of acoustic, electric, and roots-inspired styles! We have new country pop (9) with legendary guitarist Brent Mason. There is also a potpourri (14) of bouzouki, guitars, banjo, and more, perfect for adding texture and character to contemporary acoustic arrangements. We’ve added funky country guitar (5) with PG favorite Brent Mason, along with classic pedal steel styles (5) featuring steel great Doug Jernigan. There are more country songwriter styles (8) that provide intimate, rootsy foundations for storytelling and modern Americana writing. Finally, we have “background soloing” acoustic guitar (12) with Brent Mason — simpler, but still very tasty acoustic lines designed to sit beautifully behind vocals or act as a subtle standalone solo part.
Check out all the 202 new RealTracks (in sets 468-488)!
And, if you are looking for more, the 2026 49-PAK (for $49) includes an impressive collection of 20 bonus RealTracks, featuring exciting and inspiring additions to add to your RealTracks library. You'll get new country-rhythm guitar styles from PG Music favorites Johnny Hiland and Brent Mason, along with modern-pop grooves that capture today’s radio-ready sound! There are also new indie-folk styles with guitar, bass, 6-string bass used as a high-chording instrument, acoustic guitar, and banjo. Plus, dedicated "cymbal fills" RealDrums provide an added layer that work very well with low-key folky styles with other percussion.
The 2026 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2026 49-PAK!
2026 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
With your version 2026 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
- MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
- Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
- Playable RealTracks Set 5
- RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
- SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
- iOS Android Band-in-a-Box® App
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
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