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I've noticed a recurring theme here and on other forums in the way different people address questions.
There seem to be two distinct camps and one hybrid:
1) the TECHNICAL musicians ( who are usually the product of structured musical training, and who are more knowledgeable about theory and classical technique)
2) and the EXPRESSIVE musicians (who are often self-taught musicians who play by ear, but who have a natural sense about music and can often duplicate passages or whole songs after hearing it briefly)
3) and there are some lucky individuals who are both.
Van Gogh would have been an expressive artist. He spurned the classical technique of the day and forged a new path that made sense to him. I'd bet that he often heard comments like "Vincent, there's a place for large splotches of color, but it's certainly NOT in portraits of the human face"
But van Gogh probably thought "Why not?"
The story is told of a famous musician who was asked "Do you read sheet music" and he replied "Not enough to hurt my playing. "
This exchange is a good illustration of the divide between technicians and expressionists.
Which one are you?
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I have a friend at work, and we talk about music all the time. (Boss, if you're reading this, I mean we talk at LUNCH, not on the clock.. heh )  He has been taking classical guitar lessons because he already plays several other instruments and he reads music and wants to start guitar with a technically correct set of skills. Until recently his discussion has been derogatory toward people he sees on TV who play music but "they violate all the rules". He recently saw somebody play who was clearly not a trained musician, but he really liked what he was hearing. He commented "I want to play like THAT someday", to which I replied "but your technique is head and shoulders above what that guy can do" he came back with "Yeah, but my playing sounds mechanical, while his playing is sooo MUSICAL... hmmm, interesting point. This is not to suggest that trained musicians are not as musical as self taught musicians by any means, for I don't think that's true. What I DO think is that the ability to read notes on paper is not the prime determinant of whether a person's playing can stir the listener's senses.
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And your skills change with age, Pat. I used to be a very decent guitar player. I am now 60 and have some arthritis developing in my hands to join the knee and spine, and I can barely play anymore. So as a PLAYER my skills are leaving me. As a MUSICIAN, I don't know any less about music than I did 30 years ago when I was young and playing 5 dates every week.
Life also changes. I don't have the luxury of spending 8 hours a day on music. I have 8 hours a day that I work elsewhere. I would LOVE to be a full time musician again. However, there is not enough work out there to be able to maintain an income level where I can own my house, my fairly new car, etc... I am well past the years where I could live with 2 roommates to defray expenses.
Some of the stuff I wrote over the years has been very good, and when my bands performed the songs, it wasn't as much HOW the songs were played as the songs themselves. I get emails now from strangers telling me they like my writing. That means more to me than anything.
I guess the best way to answer your question is that I express through writing these days. And the writing includes the technical skill of THEORY rather than the technical skill of PLAYING. I can always get players. I have a rolodex full of players. If they can play what I hear in my head is the key.
Besides which, if I can get ONE song into heavy rotation, I can make more money from the mechanicals from that one song than I can playing in a year. Sure it's a longshot, but for every CD that comes out, SOMEBODY wrote 11 or 12 songs. Why not me?
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Erroll Gardner was a musician. He could neither read or write music. He was still a musician. There are a great number of musicians who can't read or write music, but they know what they're doing. Someone (with little or no musical training) who creates a whole song on BIAB in my opinion is not a musician. They're a computer user. A musician IMHO either plays well, composes music well, arranges well or conducts well. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Later, Ray
Asus Q500A i7 Win 10 64 bit 8GB ram 750 HD 15.5" touch screen, BIAB 2017, Casio PX 5s, Xw P1, Center Point Stereo SS V3 and EWI 4000s.
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Quote:
Someone (with little or no musical training) who creates a whole song on BIAB in my opinion is not a musician. They're a computer user. A musician IMHO either plays well, composes music well, arranges well or conducts well. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Finally, ..................... someone on here agrees with me! LOL.
Ray, Where were you when I needed you with my "Painter-In-A-Box" analogy?
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"Creating a whole song on BIAB" can mean at least two different things and should be clarified.
One way is to press a button and let the program create a song. Another way is to use the program to flesh out your own original ideas, and this is what I do as a composer before taking the song to pros who play or record it. In between is to create a chord progression but let BIAB make the melody and even the title. And I'm not counting using BIAB to transcribe an existing song, "creating" it in BIAB.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Bob, as usual I'm a little late to the party! Matt, anyone who starts out with an orginal musical idea and is a good musician is not who I'm referring to. I respect you and what you do. You and many others on the forum are real musicians. Later, Ray
Last edited by raymb1; 09/10/11 09:32 AM.
Asus Q500A i7 Win 10 64 bit 8GB ram 750 HD 15.5" touch screen, BIAB 2017, Casio PX 5s, Xw P1, Center Point Stereo SS V3 and EWI 4000s.
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Oh yes, thanks, Ray, I knew you were not talking about that (original compositions), but I thought it might be useful to clarify for others that (I think) you are talking about the one-button type of song. BIAB can do so many things in different ways to meet different needs.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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I would caution as to the view that expressive and technical are mutually exclusive...
--Mac
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Quote:
I would caution as to the view that expressive and technical are mutually exclusive...
--Mac
quoting from the very first post:
Quote:
3) and there are some lucky individuals who are both.
(I was thinking of you as I wrote that, Mac...)
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Matt,
I don’t want to highjack Pat’s thread, but I did want to second what Ray said about you. You don’t “fit the bill” of the “musician” discussion because you’re obviously a very accomplished musician regardless of anything you do with BIAB. We’d been debating on another thread about whether you had to be an “instrumentalist” in order to be classified as a “musician”, or whether folks who don’t play an instrument but use BIAB to create a song are also musicians.
I’m in the minority by taking the “instrumentalist” stance.
………………………………………………………………
Pat,
I would primarily fall into the EXPRESSIVE camp because I originally learned to play by ear and that’s still at the forefront of my playing.
I did however study some music theory so I could understand why things sound “good” and how music works. That greatly enhanced my playing and appreciation of music. It also made it easier to learn to improvise. I "almost" never play a song the same way twice, with the exception of where it's critical to a song.
My sight reading skills suck for standard notation, but I do use it and TAB to learn new songs. I prefer TAB for any fretted stringed instrument, but I used std. notation when I “dabbled” in piano and fiddle a few years ago.
I envy the folks who are great sight readers, but I pity those who can’t play without having the sheet music in front of them. (No flames please! It’s just my opinion).
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Quote:
I don’t want to highjack Pat’s thread, but ...
a new direction is never a hijack... its what keeps the discussion interesting!
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Although technically schooled ("first chair" all-state sax every year I was in school), I consider myself an expressionist.
I play seven instruments, can read music, know a decent amount of theory (a lifetime is never enough), and have adequate to excellent control over my instruments, (depending on the instrument). However, without adding expression, all of the above would only produce what I call "empty notes".
I try to use the technical skills that I have learned to serve the expression of the music, not the other way around.
I try not to show off the technical skills that I have learned, but instead to play music that has an emotional connection with the audience. I try not to play "over their heads", but instead, at the level in which they can appreciate it. I use phrasing, ornaments, dynamics, and choice of notes to do so. And when I'm performing in front of the audience, I very seldom think of anything, the music just flows, and it almost seems like the music is coming through me instead of from me. For me, thinking about scales, modes, and so on are for practice, not for performance. YMMV
IMHO expression is what music is all about.
Insights and incites by Notes ♫
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
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100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
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Quote:
1) the TECHNICAL musicians ( who are usually the product of structured musical training, and who are more knowledgeable about theory and classical technique)
2) and the EXPRESSIVE musicians (who are often self-taught musicians who play by ear, but who have a natural sense about music and can often duplicate passages or whole songs after hearing it briefly)
3) and there are some lucky individuals who are both.
This topic's question has to do with different kinds of musicians not BIAB features.
Labeling someone as a TECHNICAL musician has nothing to do with using software, unless I'm missing something here or some are reading more into this than the question states.
This is about how schooled or trained you are as a musician. Not if you use software to create original songs.
I fall into #2 and believe if you have never played a musical instrument or learned music, you're not a musician period.
If your musical skills are or have faded doesn't change that you are a musician.
Discussing one button software music creation or any software has nothing to do with this.
I'm sure that I am in the minority hereon this issue, but if you can't pick up and instrument, whatever it may be and make some sort of melody or chord progression you are not a musician at all.
Since this question has to do with MUSICIANS, I find the comments on BIAB features or any other software a form of advertising. I assume anyone reading the posts here are BIAB users.
I'm sorry if I offended anyone, just my opinion.
Wayne,
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"I'm sure that I am in the minority hereon this issue, but if you can't pick up and instrument, whatever it may be and make some sort of melody or chord progression you are not a musician at all."
Perhaps a bit too restrictive. Listening to some singers make me believe that they are truly 'musicians', even though they aren't playing an external instrument.
Billie Holiday always makes me think of an alto sax when she sings, because her phrasing and emphasis is so dang musical. It's like she is playing sax riffs with her voice.
I can play a few instruments in varying degrees of proficiency, but I don't consider myself a 'musician', but rather a 'player' instead. I guess in my own mind I consider 'musicians' as folks who can sight read music while they are playing that music.
So to me 'musician' has a more professional aspect to it.
But that's just me. I'm mostly a gear geek anyway...
Fire, the wheel, and the I IV V -- foundations of civilization.
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Being technical and expressive go hand in hand. The more you learn, the more tools you have to express yourself with.
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Quote:
Being technical and expressive go hand in hand. The more you learn, the more tools you have to express yourself with.
EXACTLY.
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Don't forget category #4
#4 Elitist: You need to group everyone into categories based on arbitrary rigid guidelines on what you think music creation or musicians should be like.
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I failed to include singers because I was in a hurry and I'm using someone's laptop. Hard for me to get around on this thing.
"Billie Holiday always makes me think of an alto sax when she sings, because her phrasing and emphasis is so dang musical. It's like she is playing sax riffs with her voice."
She would have been my first and best example. I listened to a lot of Louis Armstrong from the 30s and such and I always found that her phrasing reminded me of Armstrong. I think they both were equals as musicians as well.
My first post was a bit abrupt because I got a little picky about the software thing, plus we just went through another flood last thursday here in Upstate NY and we lost everything again. So I'm not in the best spirits. I saved my guitars, but everything else went under water again. I'm going to salvage the HDs and buy a new machine. Then I have to put all I can on a new external drive. So I'll be moving to Win7 sooner than I planned. Everything I managed to replace in the last 5 years is gone again. We're not going to rebiuld this time. Once was enough. We will have an apartment on higher ground and we're going to walk away from the house. We're done. I think my wife is as close as you can get to totally freaking out. Between sadness and anger, it's quite a roller coaster ride here.
So please bear with me while we start our lives over again. We're crushed.
Wayne,
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Sounds terrible. I hope you get a new life started quickly and you get the things you need to be content.
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