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I’d be extremely grateful for any advice from guitar-playing forum members. I’m looking to buy a steel string electro-acoustic in the very near future.
I don’t actually believe anything gtr sales staff say in shops as I am of the impression that they say pretty well anything to sell the models they (1) make the most money from or (2) can’t otherwise shift. Call me a cynic but there you are.
Here is what I will be using it for
- playing, rehearsing at home, of course
- small halls, restaurants, bars..
Here is what I want to spend
- 500 usd max including a hard case
Here is my level of ability as a guitarist
- entirely self-taught (ie non taught) adequate, ok for strumming along to most tunes, very little finger picking
Other factors
- may be daft, but my preference would be for an all black model
- I already have a half way decent pure acoustic so will really only be playing this new one amplified.
Here are just some of my questions..
- should the ‘slimline’ models like the acoustic strat be considered or do they sound as thin as they look?
- what are the brands to look for in the gtr itself and in the electronics?
- what should I look out for in inspecting particular models in shops?
- is it true that round back gtrs (Ovation) can only be played by someone standing up?
- jumbo shape? dreadnought shape?
- does it really matter if the gtr is solid top or not?
- is it insane to buy a gtr direct (via internet) i.e. without inspecting/hearing the product before purchase?
(as they don't say on exam papers) you don't have to answer all the questions!
Many thanks for any input,
Marc
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Marc,
To my ears each acoustic-electric has its "own" sound, and without knowing the sound you prefer, it would be hard to make a specific recommendation. So here's my generic recommendation (it's what I did when I bought one)
Go to as many music stores as possible and play every make and model in the way you will be using the instrument. Around here, most music stores have a special room for that, and the sales people tend to leave customers alone, understanding that the best sales influence is the sound of the instrument itself.
Also be aware that with acoustic electrics, the sound can vary quite a bit depending on whether the strings are new or old. New strings sound better in a variety of ways... and in a music store the instruments may not have had the strings changed in a long time.
If you are intrigued by the sound of a guitar, it may be worth asking the salesperson if they would replace the strings to give you a better idea of the instrument's true sound. They may do this once, I doubt they would do it twice... so save this request until you've singled out a guitar that you're ALMOST ready to buy.
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I have been down this road. This is advice from my past experience having a thin-bowl Ovation and then moving to a better acoustic guitar (A Larrivee). If the acoustic you have is already pretty nice, then use it but have a local luthier install an L.R. Baggs iBeam system and couple it with the proper pre-amp. This will run less than $500 and will likely sound much nicer than trying get everything for under $500. There are actually very few guitars designed from the ground up to be an 'electro-acoustic'. Most are dissatisfying from a sound quality standpoint. The 'thin' size does usually end up with a thin sound. Those that don't cost well over $500. You have to get into the over $1000 category for a nice Godin or something with significant engineering included. Here's some links. IBeam active system (lets you add a magnetic soundhole pickup later for more 'electro-acoustic' sound variety) http://www.lrbaggs.com/ibas/coupled with an L.R. Baggs Para DI http://www.lrbaggs.com/paradi.htmRegarding bowl-backed acoustics: Yes, they are fumbly to play with sitting down - my experience. Regarding buying black: You know that this means the manufacturer can hide poor quality wood with the paint - if not, that's one reason manufacturers paint guitars. So many other factors to consider. The main one is that when you play the guitar it should make you smile and say "I would play this for hours". If you can't find that in under $500, then save your coffee money for a year and keep looking until you can say that. Shape does matter - find a shape comfortable for you for all of the conditions that you'll be using it in. To me, dreadnaughts dig into my side too much while sitting. Jumbos sound glorious but the size can be a hassle. I settled on what has become known as the 'auditorium' type of shape. This is the shape that Taylor guitars popularized with their Grand Concert line http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/features/shapes/grandconcert/ . Mine is not a Taylor, and the upper bout is a little larger than a Taylor auditorium shape, but it still has a pretty narrow waist between the bouts which makes it comfortable sitting or standing. What is the guitar you currently have?
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Hi Marc,
I agree with everything that Pat Marr has said so I will just add to that based on my experience.
The amp you will be using is also an important factor in the sound you will get. A good amp can make an inexpensive guitar sound good while a poor amp can make an expensive guitar sound lousy.
Also consider the physical properties of both you and the guitar. I am not very big so after playing a couple of hours on my jumbo shaped guitar (16.5” wide x 4” deep) my right arm gets a little sore from reaching over the guitar. I have no problem with my other acoustic (15.5” wide x 4” deep). As you can see subtle differences mean a lot to me. For me round back guitars are virtually impossible to play sitting down.
Bases on how you will be using this guitar it shouldn’t make any difference between a solid top and a laminate. I doubt you will find a solid top in your price range anyway.
It is not insane to purchase guitars over the internet. I have done that many times. Just be sure it is a reputable dealer with a good return policy. Having said that I have never had to send back a guitar.
I will give you two more ideas:
1-have you considered adding a pickup to the acoustic you already have. I added a Barcus-Berry pickup to one of my acoustics and it sounds very good. I liked it so much that I had it permanently installed in the guitar, i.e. that is now has a plug by the lower pin to plug in a guitar cord.
2-have you considered your on-stage set up? If you are playing loudly and/or have your speakers behind you, you may get feedback with an electric-acoustic. In this case a solid body electric may be a better choice. Plus solid body electric gutars are much cheaper than acoustic guitars.
I hope this helps.
My goal this weekend is to move just enough each day so that no one pokes me to see if I'm dead or not.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Mostly what Scott said.......
I have a low end Larrivee dread, which is fine on stage standing but a bit large for sitting although I do use it both ways. It was a non electric model and I installed a LR baggs preamp which really sounds good thru the PA.
I have a cheap cheap Rogue dread non elec as well which is for banging around.
I just recently decided to get a smaller body elec-acoustic a mini-jumbo. I normally wouldn't order a guitar but based on reviews and price I took a leap of faith, I'll let you know how it turns out, I should receive it in a couple of days.
It is a Washburn, WMJ 11sce, solid cedar top and mahogony sides and back, bone saddle and nut, fishman electronics. This will be used mostly for small solo venues. I'm a self taught player as well, so I didn't want to spend more than I could justify.
If it doesn't work out, my next attempt will be a yamaha cpx 700.
The washburn at $249.00 for a solid top isn't bad, case from Musicians friend for $40.00, hopefully it fits well. Under $300.00 and Washburn has a lifetime warranty, but it is a Chinese guitar it that tells you anything. I have 4 chinese instruments right now and for the money I'm very happy with them, even though I hate to admit it.
Good luck in your search.
Rob
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Quote:
I will give you two more ideas:
1-have you considered adding a pickup to the acoustic you already have. I added a Barcus-Berry pickup to one of my acoustics and it sounds very good. I liked it so much that I had it permanently installed in the guitar, i.e. that is now has a plug by the lower pin to plug in a guitar cord.
that was going to be my advice. the $500 budget is the most restrictive factor imho.
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Here's a good link to get you looking in the $300 - $500 range. I think you can get a decent guitar for that money: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/acoustic-...p;catId=site1AC The takamine's and ibanez's look good, but the epiphone texan '64 could be OK. There are 11 pages of acoustic electric guitars in the $300-$500 range at this site.
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Hi Marc, Excellent advice from Pat. There's never been a better time to buy a low end guitar. I'm constantly amazed at the quality in the 3 to 5 hundred range. But they're not all created equal and it's best to audition them if you can. I tend to like the sound of the thicker body with a sound hole, but they will feed back faster if you're gigging with it. The thin lines can sound very good thru a moma bear, fisher, or zoom a2.1u system, and you can get to a much higher volume if that's important. I have the zoom a2.1u and recommend it if you're looking for a good pre. I recommend taking a look at the Epiphone sst as mentioned above, or the Epi pr5 (also available in black). The shadow system on these is excellent imo. It's not a pizzo, and it does colour the sound slightly. Of course, sound is subjective and you need to decide for your self which you like better. Good luck and let us know what you decide. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emVzUaF77RY&feature=relatedhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh1A587RTCk
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I have three acoustics, a 1975 Takamine, non electronic, great for strumming around at the beach or at a friends. A Ovation 12 string round back. Beautiful guitar, sounds bad unplugged, but very nice plugged in, i hate playing it as it is not comfortable to hold while seated. Lastly a Carvin Cobalt, elec/acoustic, super nice sounding and very nice playing. For Playing live, or plugged in, the pickup system makes a huge difference, as does the Amp system.
I agree with Scott, if your current guitar sound pretty good electrify it, the i-beam system i hear is great. I added a non pre-amped pickup to my older Takamine, and it worked but not well. I did the surgury my self used a good pair of vise grips to remove the strap peg, and a new very sharp drill to drill out the hole to fit the plugin adapter, and then wired it up. I wish i had spend more on one with a battery, but did not want to try that.
Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2022, Realband, Harrison Mixbus 32c version 9.1324, Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
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A few years ago I bought a Cort electro-acoustic for around $450. It worked fine for playing and I liked the sound. Unfortunately the Fishman amp system decided to fry itself a few months ago, and I found it would cost about $250 to put something else in it, as the Fishman systems are all enclosed and theres not much you can do about fixing them. I looked on Kijiji and purchased a lovely Alverez, second hand for $300. Really nice guitar, Chinese of course. I play out at Open Mics a lot so I need a guitar I can plug in. Of course, I don't believe any of these systems can reach the quality of setting up a microphone to amplify or record an acoustic guitar, but its still a good compromise when that option is not available. My 2 cents worth. 
Andrew Lloyd
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Thanks one and all,
OK taking these in order
Chris, most music-minded folk over here in Europe know all about Thomann. I have bought bits and pieces from them in the past and neve been disappointed.
Will check those models out.
Thanks Pat. Good point. When I change the strings on my acoustic, (a Yamaha FG 433S) it sounds like a different instrument for the first week or so.
Thanks Scott I will consider this idea although I’m not instinctively drawn towards after-market changes such as adding a pickup. Would hate to ruin my Yammy. Unfortunately, I haven't got a trusted local luthier.
You're right about the finish, but I just think black guitars look cool.
OK – roundbacks are out.
Hadn’t thought much about amps Mario. I have two, but neither is specifically designed as an electro-acoustic gtr amp.
I already have a very old cheapo Strat copy (a ‘Vantage’ infact), which I find to be good enough for my purposes.
Rob, let me know how it turns out with the Washburn.
Thanks for the link Kevin. One of the above-mentioned shop hands told me that some Ibanez models have unreliable mechanics in the tuning heads.
Jim – would I be better off getting a higher grade guitar, or a lower grade guitar + high quality pre-amp to compensate? I see that the epi pr5-E is quite an old model (1990), but I guess guitars are not like smartphones (newer is better)! Will check it out.
I will keep you informed of developments in this thread.
Thanks once again – and thanks in advance to all those who will be writing below.
Marc
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Hi Marc I play an Ovation 1667 Legend cutaway I purchased new back in the 80's with my income tax refund. It was either that or fix my Volkswagen. The Bug lost. It has an electric pickup (volume and base/treble no EQ), a rounded "Lyrachord/composite" back and seems to stay in tune forever. Really great ringing sound reminding me of some of Crosby Stills Nash and Young songs. Here's a photo at my website: http://www.carlkocich.com/MyMusicStudio.htmlThe rounded back does tend to want to slide out a bit when seated if your leg is slanted down and depending on how slick your pants material is. They have a textured area in the curve to help with this but without a foot rest to bring your leg up to horizontal it can be annoying. Maybe they have addressed this in the newer models. A strap can also be used . Otherwise it's very comfortable to play without the sharp edges of a traditional guitar and the sound is excellent, in my opinion. Not everyone's cup of bourbon but worth trying out. Saw a few used advertised but at the top of your price range, however with the economy the way it is, you may find a good deal in the classifieds as most musicians are always needing to sell something to get something else. Good luck on whatever you decide. Carkins
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Marc, FYI - the iBeam is actually pretty easy as a self-installed mod. The only thing you might worry about is installing the end-pin jack. If you have some handiness with a drill, you likely already have a good pilot hole with the strap button on your Yammy. Take the button off, cover the hole with painter's masking tape (the blue or green kind) select the size drill recommended by LR-Baggs, and have a go. I know, it sounds scary somewhat, but there are plenty of resources online to help show you how to do this. Here's Dan Erlewine's excellent instructions: http://www.stewmac.com/tsarchive/ts0010.htmlBut there are more and don't require the specialized tools he mentions. -Scott Also, don't be fooled by the 'aftermarket' aspect of adding a pickup. For most 'electro-acoustics' they are nothing more than an already existing acoustic with the pickup and electronics added after the fact. What normally results is an overpriced crummier guitar, with an overpriced pickup system installed. I learned this lesson the hard way.
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For someone more interested in the *color* of the guitar, rather than the aspects that have to do with playability (neck shape, dimensions, critical to the feel and your hand, for instance), Sound (dynamics and how easy or difficult they are to obtain, I prefer the loudest acoustic I can find, the idea being that it is easier to play a loud guitar softly than it is to try to get a soft guitar to play loudly when needed), Components used (for example, a solid spruce top as opposed to laminated top, or use of ebony vs rosewood fretboard and bridge), I'd have to say that there are plenty of excellent options in the import market available, as well as in the more expensive brand name instruments. And, given that, choice of a guitar with built in pickup and preamp with controls already there is likely going to be the better option to start with. One can always add the i-Bridge pickup system after the fact at a later time.
Check out RONDO guitars website for some really good builds in the import line that have proven time and again to be good value.
And not all sales people are telling you wrong things. Find a store and salespeople whom you can get to know and trust over a little bit of time through repeat visits and since the subject is now about guitars in stores rather than online purchases, always insist upon being given the time to sit and play the guitar in the store, by yourself, in order to get to know the guitar. Then put it back on display and come back on a new day, try the same guitar *again* before taking the plunge with your hard earned money.
BTW a black painted top is not going to sound the same as a natural finish top in most instances. I feel it is important to listen to the acoustic guitar by itself with no amplification first, comparing them one against the other in that fashion. This is why you will often find me in the guitar store sitting in a chair facing the corner of two walls: I want to be able to hear the soundwave bouncing back at me off of those corner walls, for that is what my audience will hear. Use of a pickup is, after all, only going to be able to amplify that sound, give or take EQ and such, my viewpoint is that the good sound has got to be there in the first place or all bets are off. The analog here is that a bad singer will still be a bad singer when heard thru a one thousand dollar microphone *grin*.
--Mac
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Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2022, Realband, Harrison Mixbus 32c version 9.1324, Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
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mmmm Carvin. I also own a Rondo sold classical guitar (Valencia is their brand for classicals) and get many compliments on the tone of the guitar. It's not a steel string, but nylon string. It came with a Shadow P7 pickup system built in. I paid $150 for the whole shot! Those pickups sold for over $100! Here's 'Greensleeves' that I did using the installed pickup in late 2011: http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=340425&page=10&fpart=1&vc=1They don't sell the classical guitar that I bought (solid cedar top, Shadow P7 pickup system) With that said, I still think your best bet is to simply install a pickup in your Yamaha if you already know that guitar well. There must be a luthier in your area that can help install it if it makes you nervous.
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Rondo for sure. I have 2 of their guitars. You get 4 times the value. My $119 Strat & $119 P bass are better then the real deal.
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In my experience no two acoustic guitars are the same, even ones which are supposed to be the same and were made at the same time in the same factory. I know lots of people who've tried a particular guitar in a shop and then ordered it online to save money, only to be disappointed with the result. My only advice would be to never buy a guitar which you haven't played.
ROG.
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