PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums Band-in-a-Box for Windows Triplet chords for ending? (Moondance)

Sorry to bug you all again, but I have a singer that wants to do "Moondance" (Van Morrison)...

Is there any way to enter the chords for the last 4 bars of the ending with the triplet-pattern like the original? I did a search on "triplets" across all the PG_forums and didn't get any hits. (I also did a search on the Yahoo/BiaB group to see if anyone else has asked about this, and also came up dry...)

Thanks!

Try this:

http://www.pgmusic.com/techfaq28.htm#25

That looks like it would work if I was A) using MIDI, and B) entering the entire chord structures as sheet-music/piano voicings. There doesn't appear to be any way to tell the RealTracks to just play the written chord-symbols as quarter-note triplets... Unless I'm missing something...

But thanks. I didn't think there was a way to do what I wanted to do.

Try swing feel. There are also styles that have this built in. Keep plugging, someone will know. Maybe Matt or Mac.

I don't spend any time trying to get RealTracks to play a particular figure; I write it into the MIDI track(s) and, if needed, mute the appropriate RealTrac(s) at that place.

I don't typically spend a lot of time trying to nail certain things such as this when laying out a song in BiaB. Such usually doesn't make a very good presentation IMO.

Instead, I might take a look at doing it some other way that the program does well, or, if insisting on the use of RealTracks especially, might leave that kind of thing for me to play on the keyboard during the performance rather than having the BiaB accompaniment try to nail something that the Style is not really programmed to do.

There are literally countless ways to end that song that will work fine.

But if faced with a singer who cannot live without the special thing, it may well be time to forego use of Realtracks and find a good MIDI file of the song that is basically note-for-note and load that instead. That, coupled with a great sounding MIDI synth, can turn in a good performance as well.


--Mac

I ended up just representing the last five chords with "..." after them, and I'll play the triplets myself, and just let BiaB play the downbeats...In the end it was just easier.

It's one of those things BiaB just doesn't do well... triplets, ritards, holds, etc. But, there are so many things that it does that just blow me away, that I can live with that.

I'd export it as a MIDI file, import it into a MIDI sequencer (or use Real Band) and use a MIDI controller to enter the triplets by playing them.

That's the easiest way for me, of course there are other ways to do it.

Notes ♫

Thanks, Bob...But:

A) I don't have a MIDI sequencer

B) Every time I try to fool with RealBand I give up in frustration within an hour. (NEVER have I seen a product that is probably so feature-rich, that is so woefully undocumented and difficult to understand for someone who is not already MIDI-savvy...And yes, I printed out the entire User's Guide and put it in a binder, and while I'm sure it's great for someone who already understands MIDI, what I would like to see is "An Idiot's Guide to RealBand" that steps you through some basic processes until you can get up to speed.)

C) Since I'm a guitar-player, it's not likely that I'll acquire some way to play things into BiaB to accomplish what I need.

I'm sure "it's easy--if you know how", but I find RealBand too complicated to deal with. (But I'd sure be the first one to buy a good book on it!) hint, hint...

There are simpler sequencers out there than Real Band. True they don't have as many features, but that might be why they are easier to use.

I'd love to recommend one, but the one I use is very old. I use a pre-Win95 version of Master Tracks Pro. When GVox bought the program from Passport, they introduced a lot of bugs, and they still haven't fixed them. So I use the old program. Works fine except for the 8.3 file name restriction.

Perhaps someone here can recommend a very simple, basic MIDI sequencer that is extremely easy to use. I'm sure L.J. would appreciate it.

There are zillions of things you can do in a MIDI sequencer to take the already very good output of Band-in-a-Box and turn it into something truly excellent. The two apps go together quite well.

Notes

.
>>>...Every time I try to fool with RealBand I give up in frustration within an hour. (NEVER have I seen a product that is probably so feature-rich, that is so woefully undocumented and difficult to understand for someone who is not already MIDI-savvy...And yes...>>>

Yes the RB documentation does seem to assume a knowledge of the basics. I had to learn from a 3d-party manual, somthing like "MIDI for Dummies." You can get it from the public library.

There is a set of songs that come with Band-in-a-box that is good to learn on. Look for the folder called C:\BB\50songs. Open these up in RB, then look at the melody in the notation window. Drag the notes around and right click to see and manipulate the properties of the notes.

You should be able to hear the changes you are making to the notes. If that's not working, call PG tech support.

>>> There are simpler sequencers out there than Real Band

Sure, but they don't have the features you need. For example, the sequencer that Bob talks about doesn't handle audio at all, so would be useless for a project like this that is full of audio (RealTracks). By analogy, Notepad is a great word processor, unless you want different fonts or bolded text in your document.

RealBand would be ideal for your project, you could copy and paste chunks of audio to create the rhythm effect that you want for the ending.

Ray Thigpen had a good tutorial on RealBand. I think he is no longer with us but someone may have a copy of it they could link to.

This is a little long, please bear with me.

For audio I almost always use Power Tracks Pro Audio, and I'm getting to know Real Band. They are excellent tools.

I'm weird, I prefer to do all my MIDI work first on an uncluttered interface with no sub-menus or sub-menus to the sub-menus. It allows me to keep my hands on my instruments more (keyboard, wind MIDI controller, or percussion MIDI controller) and on the mouse and/or computer keyboard less. This is what I like about MT Pro. Every function can be accessed by a drop down menu with no sub-menus. Click the menu bar, click the selection and the dialog box opens. MTPro also has a very easy to use groove filter (they call it a change filter) but that's the subject for another post.

Then after all my MIDI work is done, I'll import it into PT Pro Audio and start with the audio. Of course there will still be some MIDI tweaks to done in PT Pro as the audio gets layerd, but the most time consuming MIDI parts will be already taken care of in a MTPro environment that is uncluttered by audio.

But that's my own personal work flow. Others prefer to work with both at the same time. Neither way is right or wrong. Now that I'm using Real Tracks a bit, I'm doing more work in RB but if I start something from scratch, it's always MTPro first.

Some people like all in one tools, some prefer separate tools for separate functions. Could be how our brains are "wired" by our previous experiences, could be just how we naturally approach things. I think anyone who works with tools whether they are digital or mechanical has their own preferred way of working. As long as the result is good (in our case the music), who cares which tool got it there?

Interfaces in different MIDI/Audio sequencers are different too, even though they pretty much perform the same functions. I learned on a couple of different sequencers before I found MTPro, and immediately bonded with that one. It seemed to "think" about music the same way I did. I have a friend who is a whiz at Cubase, I find the Cubase interface non-intuitive for me. Neither one is wrong and both are right.

Personally, I think a sequencer and DAW are natural partners with BiaB. And with Real Band you get all three in one.

Out of the box, BiaB's output can be somewhat generic. And that's the way it should be. By request, I once wrote a style for the Elvis Presley song, "Don't Be Cruel". It worked pretty well but when I tried using the style on other songs,that signature lick just made everything sound like a variation to "Don't Be Cruel". For the amount of time I spent creating that style, I could have finished the song in a MIDI sequencer two or three times over.

So when you take the somewhat generic output of BiaB and then tweak it in a sequencer, DAW or Real Band, you can get things like those triplets you talked about in Moondance. Whether the edits are song-specific or they come out of your head, you can take the already very good output of BiaB and turn it into something truly outstanding.

While DAW work can seem overwhelming at first, you can learn a little at a time and before you know it you will be a wizard. Get an entry level book on MIDI or search the 'net for lessons and you will be on your way. You mentioned that you play guitar, I would also recommend a MIDI controller so you can input MIDI as well as audio into your work. An inexpensive MIDI keyboard will do the trick. Korg sells these little USB things that are about as wide as a laptop that should be good enough for casual MIDI entering, especially for someone who doesn't yet have keyboard skills. On the other hand, a full sized MIDI keyboard controller would be a nice addition of skills to your guitar playing.

I started out on drums, quickly moved to saxophone, and for years it was my only instrument. I messed around on guitar and bass a bit while in bands, learning bass or rhythm parts to particular songs and then added some one-handed keyboard 'doubling' when necessary. But I didn't consider myself a player of these instruments. As the years went by I got better at them and my interest grew. In time, without any noticing of it happening, I became able to gig with them and actually did from time to time.

But the best part about picking up another instrument is learning how that instrument expresses itself. This increases your understanding of music in general and your 'home' instrument playing actually gets better. I play about 1/3 sax, guitar and with synth on the gig with a little flute and percussion controller thrown in (I leave the keyboard at home although I used to bring it). Learning keyboard and guitar helped my sax playing more than I can measure.

The same thing happened when I started sequencing back in the 1980s on my Atari computer. By adding instrument parts I didn't know how to play (trumpet, harmonica, or whatever) I first had to learn to listen to recordings of those instruments, and then emulate what I could in the sequencer. This taught me a lot about how those other instruments express themselves, and again all this improved my sax, guitar, bass, flute, wind synth, and keyboard synth playing. But the biggest bonus to that is it also increased my enjoyment of listening to music. And that is a gift that is worth its weight in gold.

So while it may seem overwhelming at first, take it a little at a time. Learn some simple skills first and build on them. If you take it in small, manageable chunks, before you know it, you will be good at it, and I guarantee it will help your guitar playing and increase your enjoyment while listening to music.

You already have Real Band, so it won't even cost you anything to start.

And of course, enjoy the adventure!

Insights and incites by Notes

You admit to being weird but you put forward this 'idea' to tell us all to 'get weird too?'

As for me I'm wired. It's a letter short.

Just don't go for a short in your wiring.

Thank you all for not "beating up on me"... I REALLY want to learn, but as I said, after about an hour I get frustrated and just give up.

(FYI, I DID find a copy of "MIDI for Dummies" on Amazon, (Used: $7.26)... I just ordered it.)

I REALLY want to take my knowledge to the "next level", and now that I just retired from my day-gig, and have gone back to music full-time, I have even MORE motivation to continue that learning process.

I'm starting to get a pretty nice rotating set of gigs with just ME and the computer, and on a regular basis I get asked "What are you using?", and of course I point them to BiaB. Since I "think" like a jazz guitar player, my tracks are obviously infused with a lot the extensions/enhancements that I play when I'm gigging; i.e., Xb5#9, Xm11, etc. I spend time learning all of the new RT styles and instruments, and constantly look forward to the new releases which only enhance my 'vocabulary' with track-creation. (It's also obvious that I appear to be one of the few people in the Denver market doing what I'm doing, which has the added advantage of making it rather "unique", and people notice...)

By the way, PeterG, if you happen to read this, I can't thank you enough for all the hard work, creativity and obvious love of the product that goes into it. It shows...And it's appreciated.

So, as I say, thanks to you all for not "pouncing on me" for what I personally feel is my own "ignorance"--which I'm trying to rectify. As a "retirement-age" still-gigging jazz musician, I'm finally at that point that I always wanted to be: retired, not having to split my time with a day-gig, (which, admittedly was something I basically did to "support my 'music-habit'..."), and now free to pursue my music again full-time.

I still long for some kind of "Idiot's Guide to RealBand" from the folks who REALLY know how to use it...But in the meantime, I'll continue to try to dig it out as best I can.

(Side comment to "Notes" Norton: I always read your posts on the Yahoo Groups, and you always take the time to give great comments...I don't always agree with them, but I ALWAYS read them because you have valid things to say, and agree or not, they're worth reading...)

So there, I've finished going all "Kumbaya" on you guys...

These forums are the Idiot's Guide to RealBand and Biab, there are some incredible users here!
I think you play incredible Guitar for any gender! Post some Please!

Kind of you to say... I'm still working on finding a way to lay some solo tracks down on top of the BiaB tracks I've created so I can upload them to my website. I'm almost there. I would like to share some of the stuff I've been doing someday...