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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 265
Apprentice
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OP
Apprentice
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 265 |
Hi, everyone,
I have BIAB 2012; I use it with a new Dell laptop to play primarily bass, piano, drums, and organ or strings on praise & worship songs at my church. I play all the guitar parts myself. Been using BIAB every week this way for almost 5 years and love it. Started using RealDrums soon after they first became available but only started trying to use RealTracks within the last month; my new Dell finally made it possible - my old laptop just didn't have the memory/processing power to handle them.
I run the BIAB output from the headphone jack on the Dell into a current model Peavey mixer and then into a Bose Personal Amplification System. I've always been very satisfied with the sound quality of this combination, but I am wrestling with something now and would like your input, please.
Is it just me or is the sound of the Acoustic Rhythm Piano RealTracks not sound quite as good as the midi piano using the Roland software synth? When I listen to my BIAB songs using only my little laptop speakers, it seems to sound okay, but on my Peavey/Bose rig, it doesn't sound as natural to me as the midi sound. Just to clarify, I like the piano parts that are recorded on the RealTracks (the notes and chords and patterns that are being played) - it's the actual sound or tone quality or realism, however you want to say it. To my seasoned ear, it sounds like an electric piano that is trying to sound like an acoustic piano and only doing a so-so job of it. The EQ is set pretty flat on the mixer and everything else sounds great.
I appreciate your feedback and suggestions,
Jim
Jim
Psalm 33:3 Sing unto him a new song; play skillfully with a loud noise.
BIAB 2018 build 519; Dell Inspiron N4110, Windows 10 64 bit, Intel Core i3-2350m running at 2.29 GHz, Memory: 6 GB DDR3, SDRAM 1MHz
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,132
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,132 |
I agree that the piano tracks sound processed, but I don't have a good enough ear to say what's happening.
I suspect that they've been EQ'd with the high and low ends rolled off so they fit better in a mix. I wouldn't be surprised to find that WMA (a lossy compression algorithm) has something to do with it as well.
The other issue with the piano RealTracks is that they're polyphonic, and transitioning from one voicing to another means cutting off the prior clip. This works well for monophonic instruments and guitars, but not really that well with the piano. Notes that are "dropped" are much more obvious and unnatural. This is especially problematic if you add pushes, although I suspect that a number of these are just oversights in how they've been encoded.
I think this is the one place where offering Piano "RealTracks" as MIDI would give a superior product, because (despite what pianists may say) there are only a limited number of articulations available, and MIDI does a good job capturing them.
To make polyphonic RealTracks work smoothly, you'd have to come up with some way to make the transition seams less obvious. One way would be to make the crossfade longer, which means that each phrase either has to be held longer in performance, or edited in post via time stretching. This wouldn't work well where the overlapping harmonies were dissonant.
In any event, although the RealTrack pianos can be quite good, I think MIDI would give the superior product in the long run. If they were worried about quality, they could probably license an excellent VSTi piano to go along with it.
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
When using the headphone jack as a line out to an amp, I find that the ONLY way to make it sound right is to always open the Playback mixer on the laptop (rightclick the speaker icon in the taskbar) and then turn the faders there UP ALL THE WAY, including the Master.
Adjust volume only with the hardware controls on the amplifier.
If the line is not driven hard in this manner, the EQ of all sorts of things will sound rather thin.
--Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 716
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 716 |
This response does not directly address the difference between midi and real track piano quality but it may be relevent in understanding what is happening.
I was always very happy with the quality of the stereo piano sound from my Yamaha keyboards when played through a stereo amplifier to two speakers. When I started to use a single Bose PA I was terribly disappointed with the piano sound, it was "cheesy" and lacked the clarity of the great Yamaha piano sound. All other instruments, both synth and RT sounded great.
I did a lot of research, particularly on the Bose owners forum, and eventually found the reason. The stereo piano sound relies on keeping the left and right channels separate using stereo speakers because the source is generated from left and right positions across the width of the piano. All other instruments are "point source" in comparison. If you combine the channels and use a mono amp (like the Bose) then you get, what some people call, "phase cancellation" and there is a massive deterioration in the quality. Summing stereo to mono with piano sounds just doesn't work well. All other instruments sound no different using a single Bose - just the piano.
After exhaustive testing I eventually bit the bullet and bought a second Bose for performing and the Yamaha stereo piano sound is back. You have to keep the channels separate right to the speakers so I use separate mono inputs in my mixer with one panned fully left and one fully right.
I haven't experimented with the difference between midi and RT piano sound but because you are using a single mono Bose I suspect the reason is something to do with the difference between the way the sounds react differently when you sum to mono via the Bose. I have been suprised how this phase cancellation issue with stereo piano sounds isn't more recognised.
Tony
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 265
Apprentice
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OP
Apprentice
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 265 |
I found Tony's post very interesting, but I'm not sure whether it applies to me because my Bose PAS is the original "Classic" system which actually does have 3 separate amps: one (250 watts) for the top section of the "stick," another 250 watt amp for the bottom section of the "stick," and a third 250 watt amp for the subwoofer. I am running the left and right outputs of my mixer into two separate amps, so I don't think they are being summed, at least not electronically. Granted, there is no stereo separation in the traditional sense of the word; in this case, it's upper and lower rather than left and right, so I guess it's possible that they are being summed in a physical way rather than electronically, but I don't hear this phase cancellation happening on stereo electric piano sounds (see below).
Do you think this stereo issue really matters in my case? Are we even sure that my acoustic piano track is stereo? I don't always use the same Acoustic Piano RealTrack, but they all sound the same to me in this regard. One that I use is 1602:Piano,Acoustic,Rhythm Pop16 Ev. Is this one a stereo track?
For what it's worth, on one song I am using a RealTrack Electric Piano Sound that sounds like it is a stereo recording (~1437:Piano,Electric,Rhythm JazzFunkGroovin Ev16) and it sounds absolutely correct on my Bose system. I hear no phase cancellation on this patch; it sounds totally right.
Thanks,
Jim
Jim
Psalm 33:3 Sing unto him a new song; play skillfully with a loud noise.
BIAB 2018 build 519; Dell Inspiron N4110, Windows 10 64 bit, Intel Core i3-2350m running at 2.29 GHz, Memory: 6 GB DDR3, SDRAM 1MHz
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 265
Apprentice
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OP
Apprentice
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 265 |
Two more things:
Mac, I checked the output setting on the Dell. It was 67%. I raised it to 100% but in this instance, it made no audible difference other than loudness. When I turned the mixer gain down to compensate, it sounded exactly as it did originally. In my case, this factor doesn't seem to affect the tone or EQ.
Tony, I tried adjusting the pan setting on the piano sound to both the minimum and then the maximum settings (all the way left and then all the way right)but it made very little (if any) difference in the sound. So I don't think there is any stereo cancellation going on.
I also experimented with the tone setting of the piano track; changing the setting made an audible difference, but I don't think it helped with what I'm hearing.
I'm starting to wonder if maybe I'm just so used to hearing the Coyote software midi piano that the RealTracks sounds "wrong" just because it's different. It's funny, though, I don't ever think that when I'm listening to a recording of a real piano on the same sound system or any other. (My midi piano sound is now Coyote rather than Roland/VST as I said earlier; I'm not sure when that changed.)
I haven't been watching the forum much in the last year or so until I made the change to use RealTracks last month; has no one else ever commented about this? Am I just interpreting what I am hearing differently than I should? Why does the piano sound okay on my laptop's little speakers but not on the Bose, even though everything else sounds great on the Bose?
Jim
Psalm 33:3 Sing unto him a new song; play skillfully with a loud noise.
BIAB 2018 build 519; Dell Inspiron N4110, Windows 10 64 bit, Intel Core i3-2350m running at 2.29 GHz, Memory: 6 GB DDR3, SDRAM 1MHz
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,697
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,697 |
I agree with what you guys are saying. Most of the piano RT's sound pretty good but the ones that don't tend to be slower ones. To me one reason for that is the sustain pedal. Midi can do the sustain pedal correctly but the RT's can't because nobody knows ahead of time what chords a user is going to pick so when there's a chord change, the sustain from the last chord must be cut off in most cases. There seem to be a few chord changes that were recorded in their entirety like a some 2-5-1 turnarounds so the sustain is correct but most chord changes are cut off. The RT sounds choppy and unnatural in that case.
Many times because of this a good midi track going though a good synth (VERY important) can sound better than an RT. I also agree that's there's a few where the basic piano tone is not right and the description of an electric piano trying to sound like an acoustic is right on. I've heard that too and I have a very good stereo monitoring system. No idea what causes that. Maybe it's the tempo stretching, we could test that by playing the offending track at it's listed best tempo and see if it sounds correct.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,132
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,132 |
I think the RealTracks Set 155: John Jarvis Pop Piano video demonstrates the problem with the piano transitions. At 3:59, despite the change in dynamic levels, the transition between the Gm to the F is good. But the next change at 4:02 from the C to the Bb, you can hear the glitch as it crossfades between the two. This is especially problematic when the track (like this one) is a solo ballad style, because it's completely exposed. If you're using these styles, using RealBand is probably the best approach, so you can spot issues and replace them with cleaner changes. It's just the nature of this sort of technology that this sort of thing happens. Bet that piano would sound nice with the new cello RealTrack underneath... 
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,132
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,132 |
All right! I just saw the MIDI SuperTracks Sets for Band-in-a-Box.  The website isn't currently serving up the demos, but this looks great. Darn it, PG Music... I'm quickly running out of excuses not to get this update! 
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
Quote:
Two more things:
Mac, I checked the output setting on the Dell. It was 67%. I raised it to 100% but in this instance, it made no audible difference other than loudness. When I turned the mixer gain down to compensate, it sounded exactly as it did originally. In my case, this factor doesn't seem to affect the tone or EQ.
Have you tried the Global RealTracks Volume Adjust?
Maybe turning it up a few dB might help, dunno, as I don't have a problem with the RealTracks, at least not the ones I use.
--Mac
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