PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums Band-in-a-Box for Windows deconstructing the demo songs, how to?

hi - when I try and create songs from scratch, they don't sound anywhere near as good as the demos...

any quick tips on how to see what exactly is loaded up and playing in the demo tracks (specific patches, real tracks loaded, drums/other elements being used)?

I figure if I can look deep into what exactly's going on in the demo tracks, I can better create new ones from scratch.

my favorite demo so far is the tenor bebop jazz one:

_JZBOPTS Bebop Quartet demo

All-RealTracks BeBop Jazz Quartet with Tenor Sax Soloist being backed by Piano, Acoustic Bass and Drums.
Tempo = 150 - 220

_JAZZBOP.STY. BeBopTrio, Ac.Bass & Pno(190 RS)
All RealTracks. Trio.
RD: JAZZ: a: HiHat b: Ride & Snare :Craig Scott
RT752: Bass, Acoustic, Jazz BeBop Sw 190 , Neil Swainson
RT755: Piano, Acoustic, Rhythm Jazz BeBop Sw 190 , Miles Black

not sure how to load up all those things, the 2 RTs and the RD into one song, so it all comes out sounding like the demo..?


thanks -

ken

p.s. I'm still astonished that this program can randomly generate good-sounding real-sounding tenor jazz sax solos on the fly, that's a remarkable feat that should be on CNN or something, it's really incredible. I mean hit GenPlay and get a new randomly generated solo in real track that sounds good....really? i wouldn't believe it if I wasn't doing it here myself. just amazing. brilliant.

Hi kenjazz,

What is it in particular that doesn't sound good?

It would help greatly to narrow it down here, as to what you think is the problem.

For example, is it a case of perhaps a different tonality, fullness of sound, or is it a case where what the instruments are playing perhaps does not seem to fit, etc.

There would be a different approach to each different aspect.

--Mac

So load a demo song you like, clear out the chord grid and enter the chord progression of your song. The sound you get is all about the style selected; however, the PGMusic demo songs generally have a melody track, so you might also try listening to the demo with the melody track muted, just to see what the accompaniment sounds like. That's the same type of sound you should get with your own songs.

Otherwise, if I remember correctly, PGMusic doesn't do anything to tweak the songs they post. Pretty much just selecting the style, entering a melody and/or sol, then hitting play.

That has been my experience also -- the PGMusic demosongs are NOT tweaked or made to sound better via "outside" methods.

However, there may be a setting somewhere that is causing your rendered songs to sound differently and that's where the importance of you coming back here and better defining what it is that is different about your own songs is going to help clear this up. This could be anything from a gain staging problem, easily rectified with some settings changes and better understanding of how to do that, to perhaps selecting the wrong Style file for the task at hand and ending up with some undesired "extra" notes in your chords. Or any one of several other things.

For the record, my own results come out sounding very much as rich and full as the PGMusic Demo Songs do, after understanding and using some of the settings for soundcard, DXi Rendering, the BB mixer, etc. and I don't typically have to change settings from song to song in order to have that happen.


--Mac

hi - thanks guys... from what the demo looks like, for example is there multiple styles/things loaded, to make it sound the way it does?

for example looking at the information, it says

song title: All RealTracks - Bebop Quartet

_JAZZBOP.STY. BeBopTrio, Ac.Bass & Pno(190 RS)
All RealTracks. Trio.
RD: JAZZ: a: HiHat b: Ride & Snare :Craig Scott
RT752: Bass, Acoustic, Jazz BeBop Sw 190 , Neil Swainson
RT755: Piano, Acoustic, Rhythm Jazz BeBop Sw 190 , Miles Black

so does that mean to replicate that sound, it's layering, using individually-loaded RT patches for different parts? not sure on how to replicate from scratch that type of sound...

eg Step 1: enter chord progressions
Step 2: pick a style from the style picker (_JAZZBOP.STY)
Step 3: right click on "soloist" at top bar and choose 'select best soloist real tracks' and choose tenor sax, eg 758

hitting the genplay button, it creates a song, but it doesn't play nearly as good as the demo, if you choose "load demo song", so I'm missing something... sorry I'm new to the program, trying to figure out how to get songs set up like the demo ones are.

Hi Ken,

A couple of thoughts spring to mind as to why the style doesn't sound as good when you generate it. It might be that the tempo is not the best tempo for those Realtracks. It might also be that the chords you have entered are not as adventurous as those used for the demo.

Regards,
Noel

Or it might be that you are unhappy with what the Soloist selected is playing.

I still don't know what the exact problem is here.


--Mac

hi - thanks; I'll make a recording to show the difference... it's just operator error I'm sure; I'll keep trying.

Hi again, Ken.

As I suspect you're already discovering, BIAB is a fantastic program. My experience is that the best way to understand how it works is to get in and get one's hand's dirty (metaphorically speaking).

It would be great to hear your recording. That will help a great deal with understanding your issue.


Regards,
Noel

That's the spirit, kenjazz.

Over the years, I have found out that Band in a Box is like learning a completely new and different "instrument" in and of itself, and the same sort of problems arise that one would encounter if they were to try adding a new and different musical instrument to their arsenal. Imagine the things that a consummate reed instrument player would have to contend with when picking up, say, a guitar and attempting to make music with it.

In one aspect, the reed player would be ahead of the game, in the sense that things such as notation, counting, rhythmic figures, etc. would be things that are already developed.

But on the other hand, the kind of things that would be necessary to master about playing the completely different instrument are going to take some time and repetition, study and understanding before that new instrument becomes a dependable asset.

There is a forum regular around here for many years who recently passed away who said it best: If Band in a Box could be mastered in a day or two, the program wouldn't be worth the purchase price. (I'm paraphrasing here, the late John C. had his own wonderful usage of the English language in these forums, but that is the gist of it.)

When I first had an early copy of Band in a Box, way back when pgmusic had not even added Audio to the thing, a MIDI-only auto-accompaniment program, I did not really use the program very much if at all. Tried it out, didn't get results that were good sounding enough and left it to languish. It was not until some time later, maybe more than a year, that I decided to sit down with the program and try to really make it work for me, entering the chords to a particular song that I needed to woodshed. That began the true learning curve for me, as I got enough of what I needed out of the program at that time to have an auto-accompaniment in order to streamline the practicing of the particulars, to include working out the improvisation of solos.

I then started trying to make that happen for other tunes and along the way learned quite a bit as to the methods, features, tips and tricks needed in order to become a seasoned PGMusic practitioner. And, the learning never ends, it seems, as PGMusic manages to come up with so many New Features to add to this wonderful music tool, every year. Sometimes every half year.

Take your time, work with it, play with it, don't let the frustration of self-imposed "deadlines" get in the way.

Sometimes putting the thing to bed for awhile and coming back to it makes all the difference in the world.

And, as I found out many years ago here, this forum is a dynamite place to share the experience, making the learning of this New Instrument much more fun than trying to scope it out on my own. I hope you find out the same.

The most important aspect, IMO, is Peter Gannon's own motto:

"Have Fun,"

Having FUN with Band in a Box is likely the best path to getting past initial learning curves, moving into "user" status and continuing on to "superuser" status IMO.

And after working out and having fun with this marvelous program for a bit, you will likely enjoy the looks on the faces of the *other* cats you've been playing live with when they hear the differences in your playing and soloing from the bandstand.


--Mac

outstanding insights, Mac... much appreciated. I'm completely impressed with the software, i guess just trying a lot of stuff would be the way to go, and follow along w/all the tutorials.

my main reason for getting it is to make backing tracks I can mix in cakewalk/sonar with my live sax playing, to make youtube videos...and do it with copyright-free arrangements I've "authored" on my own by typing in chords into biab and having it generate real-track guitar/piano/drum backing, for bebop/classic jazz tunes... it's the perfect program for that, to export .wav files I can do audio mixdowns with, as the base, to play via headset as I record sax bits into a mic, then mix it all w/reverb/compression in sonar/vegas/whatever.

i remember back in the day using my commodore-64, 30 years ago, with some basic midi program, and how much fun that was. now biab with it's ability to spontaneously generate fresh tracks that sound good, for use as backing, is a huge move forward... looking forward to getting up to speed on it... thx for the insights :-)

Ken,

If no one has said this already, welcome to the community. You've gotten advice from the best of the best here, mainly because you are musically literate and are asking great questions. We look forward to watching and helping you grow. Adding BIAB to your arsenal may take you and your playing to another level, as it has for me and countless others.

Some thoughts on workflow. BIAB is in many ways the ultimate shiny thing. I recommend trying to learn one thing at a time, BUT take notes as you go as far as what you might want to learn next, because answering one question will raise many others. Then prioritize what you come up with and continue on your merry way. Of course, put to use what you learn as you learn it so it 'sticks.'

BIAB is an amazingly deep program which, if you didn't know experientially, a cruise through some of the menus, submenus, and sub-submenus would confirm. It is VERY easy to become distracted. Having ADD myself, I have gone as far as writing down particular goals and keeping them in front of me as I work so that I can stay on task. Over time you will find what works best for you.

HTH,

Richard

Hi Richard, thanks so much for the encouraging words, I really appreciate it. Agree it's amazingly deep, tons of features to learn... and well worth it.

Good point about goals, one action item I'm going to do is create some biab tutorials w/camtasia for youtube, as I learn it, to document how to do simple tasks, like "set up a 12-bar blues progression and "trade 4s" w/realtracks type of project.

Looking forward to the journey... the older I get if I don't record it/write it down, if I step away for a couple months I'll totally forget it, so that's why i'm going to make a series of 6-12 video tutorials, which will help w/memorizing it, how to do things.


thx,

Ken