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Hi, Rockstar
Thank you for coming to my rescue !
You are absolutely right. My intention
was never to insult anybody, just
bring to everybody´s knowledge that
IMO latin cannot be considered a dead
language in a country where they
have regular news in latin and the
language is in daily use and developing
all the time ! sic !
I stick to my opinion respecting all
others´ as well !:))
Cheers
Dani Dani, Mac is correct in that the aspect of whether a language is alive or not is dependent upon development of the language, not necessarily whether there are usages of the language. Of course Latin is still used - there are still Catholic parishes across the world that offer services in Latin - and Latin is used by the scientific and academic community as a sort of nomenclature tool. Esperanto is also used as a hobby by some linguists. But neither Latin nor Esperanto would be considered 'live' languages in their continual development and evolution mainly because of the assertions that Mac points out - and as he also points out, this viewpoint is not his invention. With all of that said, I tip my hat to you (a compliment) for even attempting to wade into a discussion like this in a language likely not your native language. I certainly would not be able to hold any type of meaningful conversation in any other language (and some might argue that I can't hold a meaningful conversation in English).
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The Blues is full of double negatives, isn't' it? "Ain't no sunshine, when she's gone..." just sprung to mind 
Cheers, Mike My Music * Asus ROG Strix G15CF 32 GB DDR4 4TB HDD + 1 TB SSD NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060 8GB Win 11 AKAI EIE PRO Sound Interface. BIAB/RB 2024 UltraPak Build - Latest
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Oh, brother !
Quo usque tandem..... !
Cheers
Dani
Last edited by dani48; 10/15/13 06:44 PM.
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.
Now I am getting interested.
If I understand correctly, Finnish is one of just a very few languages spoken in Europe that is not derived from Latin. So it would make sense for Finns to know Latin, for those occasions when y'all meet people from Italy or Spain or France. Am I right about that?
And how about Russian and Ukrainian? Does knowing Latin help at all with understanding speakers of these languages?
Last edited by flatfoot; 10/15/13 05:19 PM.
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Hi Flatfoot,
As you say, Finnish is not a Latin based language. Moreover it is not related to any other language on earth except Hungarian. The two form an entire language class called "Finno-Ugric." This may have changed since I last looked into it years ago, but Dani might help clarify.
Aleck
PS I think you've got the greatest signature in this shop.
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Hi, guys !
I cannot answer with certainty
but you are right about Finnish
not being a Latin based language.
I think we have to add Estonian
to the same group of languages.
My guess is that Latin suits
the Finns well not only from the basis
you named Flatfoot, but as Latin
is a language that is pronounced
quite "hard" like Finnish also, it
may be easier to learn and to speak.
Like Latin the Finnish language is
pronounced exactly like it is written,
whereas this is not the case with
most other languages ( I better leave
a door open by saying at least not
any I know of) ?
I do not think Russian and Ukrainian
to have much in common with Latin, but
I may be wrong !
English is the predominant language
used in conversations among other europeans
and a lot of Finns are good in German too !
Swedish, which is our other official
language, is on the decline because of the
overwhelming interest in English, which generally
is considered more important to learn !
Cheers
Dani
Last edited by dani48; 10/15/13 07:13 PM.
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I was able to find an authoritative source indicating a relationship between modern Finnish and Hungarian:
Hung. k é z (hand) = Finn. k ä s i , Hung. v é r (blood) = Finn. v e r i, Hung. m é z (honey) = Finn. m e s i, Hung. s z a r v (horn) = Finn. s a r v i, Hung. v a j (butter) = Finn. v o i, Hung. e l e v e n (alive) = Finn. e l ä v ä, Hung. m e n n i (to go) = Finn. m e n n ä, Hung. r e p e d (to be torn) = Finn. r e p e ä ä etc.. which give a direct hint to a common origin. To notice similarities between Hung. f e j (head) = Finn. p ä ä, Hung. f é s z e k (nest) = Finn. p e s ä, Hung. f é l (to be afraid) = Finn. p e l k ä ä, Hung. f a k a d (to become fulfilled) = Finn. p a k a h t u a and other words is considerably more difficult, if you are not aware that the letter f in the beginning of the word regularly match the Finnish p. Or, the letter n in Finnish is often replaced by ny in Hungarian, as in Finn. n i e l l ä (swallow) = Hung. n y e l n i, Finn. m i n i ä (daughter-in-law) = Hung. m e n y. The long ő, met in the end of a Hungarian word, has previously been a diphtong öü or eü and even more previously ev. The consonant v in this is still often met in words like, e.g. Hung. k ő [the accusative case k ö v e t ] (stone) = Finn. k i v i , Hung. t ő (tree base) = Finn. t y v i and Hung. v ő (son-in-law) = Finn. v ä v y.
But, more interestingly, Dani was right about Estonian. Estonian is much more closely related to Finnish. The Finno-Ugric group contains 7 languages. Except for Finnish at one end and Hungarian at the other, the 5 remaining languages are obscure ones that you or I have probably never heard of.
Aleck
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BROTHER DAVE'S DOGGEREL FOR THE DAY, 05/04/13 - #2I hear "Ain't no sunshine when she's gone," And I use my mental, metaphorical pliers To firmly grasp and extract one of the two Contradicting double-negative modifiers. A third negative would establish darkness, But be even more convoluted and overlong. The logic would work, but be hard to decipher In "Ain't not no sunshine when she's gone." Perhaps "Ain't no" was used to show sarcasm. Maybe irony was intended to be brought to light. Or, maybe his baby is only away in the daytime And, like a vampire, she just turns up at night. It seems to be something songwriters often do. A good grammar campaign won't get any traction. Either I accept the occasional double negatives Or, as Mick says, "I can't get no satisfaction." …D'oh!http://www.brodavelister.com/scribble/doggerel_2013.htm#05_04_13B
Last edited by Bro. Dave; 10/18/13 03:58 AM.
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>>>...Perhaps "Ain't no" was used to show sarcasm...>>>
I think this is a good example of how natural language works. As I posted earlier, the rule against the double negative in English is a formalism copied from Latin grammar. It is out of context in English. The expression in this song shows that the double negative comes up naturally at moments when emphasis is required to express strong emotion.
It just feels right, especially in Bill Withers' minor-key setting. I will say the same about the 'misuse' of the word "aint." I cant imagine this song any other way.
Last edited by flatfoot; 10/18/13 06:17 AM.
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What amazes me with double negatives is the usage in questions where the questioner expects a negative answer:
Setup:
Buses from a certain station leave to Airport or Train Station. No bus stops at both destinations.
Scene 1:
A bus is approaching a bus stop. The sign on the bus reads "Airport". The question might be: "Isn't this bus going to the train station?" and the bus driver answers: "No" -- meeting the expectance of the questioner. (What would've happended if the bus driver would have answered "Yes"?)
Scene 2:
A bus is approaching a bus stop. The sign on the bus reads "Airport". The question might be: "Is this bus going to the train station?" and the bus driver answers: "No".
Guido
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There is mroe ivnolved whti the art fo conmumication than jsut the wrod useag...
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Yuo aer alboseltuy rgiht ! Ym Fernid
Ceerhs
Dnai
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Still, asking two questions, one with a positive and one with a negative formulation (?) expecting the same answer is difficult to deal with.
And this doesn't have anything to do with awkward but decipheralbe spelling when reading. Asking questions to a bus driver is seldom done in written form. :-)
Guido
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Ah, but the in-person conversation adds so much more commnication than just the words themselves, facial expressions, cultural inflections, hand movements, etc. - that there can be much more communicated regardless of word logic rules such as use of double-negative.
Q: How do you stop an Italian from talking?
A: Bind his hands.
--Mac
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>>...: "Isn't this bus going to the train station?" and the bus driver answers: "No" -- meeting the expectance of the questioner...>>
Sometimes I like to answer questions of this type positively, just to mess with your head:
YOU: "Isn't this bus going to the train station?"
ME: "Yes, it is'nt"
("Yes" - your observation is correct)
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Journeyman
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In the West of Scotland we have a wonderful expression........"AYE.....RIGHT!".....meaning just the opposite, of course! Joe G.
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>>>..."AYE.....RIGHT!".....meaning just the opposite, of course...>>>
In America, the expression "Yeah, right..," delivered in a sarcastic tone, means its opposite. Often the comment is made about in response to a statement delivered by a person in authority. The response is directed away from the person who made the original, triggering remark.
The boss might say "our company is a wonderful place to work." An employee in the audience might whisper to his neighbor "yeah, right" in a sarcastic tone to signify disagreement.
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And the boss says, "That's a no-no..."
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I studied Latin in Highschool....I never understood why, because back then, it was a dead language....and it still is. Mac is completely right. Oddly enough, before I moved to wonderfully warm Vermont, I lived in Spain for 12 years. I had never studied Spanish, but very quickly realized how much of the Spanish language was based on Latin. Verb conjugation is almost exact. Some of the European languages, I believe including English, are known as romance languages.....stemming from Latin....although English has been 'tainted' by many other countries languages, probably because it kept being invaded by almost everyone in western Europe....until William did his bit in 1066 and we had had enough by then. (That's a joke, just in case anyone feels differently...well, anyone French that is). For the Finnish, give up...Latin is dead....and as a matter of interest...how many other countries speak Finnish? Maybe that's why they are choosing to speak Latin. (another joke....hell, I don't care )
Den
'Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they are NOT after you........'
Win 10 , BIAB 2017, and that's all folks !!!
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Brother Dave's Doggerel For The Day, 07/27/13: The Twenty-Seventh of July has long been known as the "National Sleepy Head Day" in Finland. With water, they douse the last poor sap in the house still sleeping. This tradition, it seems, Is based on a myth of The Seven Sleepers, who slept for centuries after closing their peepers. But considering current cost of reveries lost, Finns should let dreamers Fin[n]ish their dreams. To learn more about National Sleepy Head Day and/or The Seven Sleepers (aka Saints of Ephesus), see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Sleepy_Head_Day and/or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saints_of_Ephesus.
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