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Joined: Mar 2009
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I don't know if it is possible, but it would be great. We have the possibility of displaying the notes of realtracks now, but wouldn't it be lovely if we could input notes and play them back with the realtracks? I think it might be a hard to do job, or even a mission impossible, but well it is not my territory so I am just asking. It would really be a superb thing if it is possible! 
I'll be back...
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Quote:
wouldn't it be lovely if we could input notes and play them back with the realtracks?
What you just described is a common MIDI sequencer playing back MIDI samples.
We've had that for years.
And it has limitations, which is why RealTracks make the huge difference that they make. It isn't about playing back single notes with the same samples every time, but about playing back well-chosen phrases or groups of notes over a given chord that makes the RealTracks sound "Real".
--Mac
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Citaat:
Citaat:
wouldn't it be lovely if we could input notes and play them back with the realtracks?
What you just described is a common MIDI sequencer playing back MIDI samples.
We've had that for years.
And it has limitations, which is why RealTracks make the huge difference that they make. It isn't about playing back single notes with the same samples every time, but about playing back well-chosen phrases or groups of notes over a given chord that makes the RealTracks sound "Real".
--Mac
Not really, otherwise I would have mentioned a sampler. (Which should be (audio/wave) sampler by the way, since MIDI is not sound but digital 0's and 1's so there is nothing there to sample). No, that is not what I mean. Or maybe I do in a comparisson of the basics, but not the basic sampler, although a good quality sampler might be not a bad idea to add in the instrument plugin section besides the dxi midi plugin we get. And a sampler could also play phrases and the limitations are of course only made by the fact of 16 channels to send the midi data, not the amount of variations. So if it has to be called a sampler, then I would say it should be a variable intelligent musical midi to wave sampler.
In other words what I really ment, and that is the whole point here, a kind of reverse enginering to develope some way to use the realtracks by putting in midi notes. This you could extend to more possibilities of course, like playing a part of a riff based on that note untill the next input follows or whatever, or exactly doing what you explain here, acting as a simple wave sampler (single notes/chords, strumming guitar, pizzicato strings a.s.o.). So instead translating the realtracks to notes (as we now have it) translate the notes into realtracks. That way you got more control and choices then the way we use now. A track then of course should not only contain those phrases, but also single chords and stuff like that. In fact a combination of the realtracksystem and a (track)sampleplayer. Would have to be a very smart device so I doubt if it is technically (allready) possible, but hey I thought it was at least a nice dream! 
I'll be back...
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You just described -- a MIDI sampling synth.
See, each note picked would have a particualr single ADSR to it.
THAT is the problem.
--Mac
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Hmmm, I wonder if you really read what I write or if my English is so bad that it makes no sense, but that is not what I (try to) describe. A sampling synth is nothing more than a device, no matter if it is hard or software, that is receiving a midi note and reacts to that. Inside the sampler there are wavs stored with a certain given amount of settings, amongst which also includes the ADSR. It reacts to the keyboard's input or that of the sequencer, this is not variable and not inteligent. It does what you tell it to do on forehand. Every sound is seperatelly programmed.
What I am talking about is those realtracks which you could see as one huge sample with a lot of possible variations within. The notes refer to several possible variations that are stored within the wave by recording those in phrases. Just as we insert a chord, the realtracks react to it, so it would react in a same way to the notes that you would put in. In other words, to use a view examples of usage that may clear up this misunderstanding a bit:
1. If I like to program my sequencer with some guitar chords and some single note riffs in between, the realtracks would be read and there will be a search for a chord and the specific notes I played. Those notes are just like the chords (in the system we have now) used in a variation of possibilities. This includes not really ADSR, since it has variable information spread over the wave, which gives the program the possibility of selecting different phrases that have been recorded. That we allready can do now with putting in chords, so I guess that should also be possible to give in notes.
2. If I created a solo with the soloist using a realtrack, and I would be able to manupilate the played notes within the notationscreen, then I could change the solo to my own needs. This way the soloist would become a more a flexible tool. Now you only can wait what the program comes up with without having anything to say about what you exactly want. Phrases could contain 1 bar, 2 bars, 4 bars or whatever, even single beats. The resolution should not depend on a few choices but on the wishes of the creator.
To do all of this with a regular sampler would be a lifetime job if not impossible at all. There would simply be too many variables and settings to be made for each sample and probably then you still could not come close enough to this "live recorded feel".
Phew, maybe this clears the sky. I hope now you get my point?
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I don't think you are getting MY point.
Do you have any idea how much data there would have to be on a single realtrack for there to be an example that could cover every possibility of what someone could notate?
Just chopping out single notes wouldn't work either, that would eliminate the realism of the realtrack, worse than that, there would be no loop points for many of the examples. It would have no choice but to chop.
What would you suggest that someone record on a guitar real track, as an example, that would cover all of the circumstances that people could write in notation?
--Mac
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I think that was not your point, since you only mentioned it was sampling, which it is not. It has links, but it is a different approach. And you mentioned envelope issues, which are not part of the idea I tried to explain.
But then to get into your new argument I would say this: first of all I did not say it was possible in practice. I am sure in theory it should be. And then, I said: wouldn't it be lovely? Implying that this is more or less a kind of dreaming idea. I never said anywhere that this would be realised the next BiaB version or what so ever.
My point is that development will not stop here. My now still unlikely dream, might be fulfilled one day, one never knows. If you would have told my grandpa that we would land on the moon or have computers he would not believe it and say it would be impossible. If we had to believe the old systembuilders from the first computers, the limits of a computer's power would allready have been reached in the 80's. So to me nothing is impossible. Yes it would be a lot of data, not so much in size necessarily, since we always got compression and that also still develops (FLAC e.g.) in quality, but more in the work that would be in it. But well, if you see the realtracks now, they are also very limited in variation and we all seem to be pretty happy with it. A note can be played in many, many variations, but you don't need to cover all possibilities at once. As I said it is a development and we all are happy when we go forward, eventhough the methods are still limited to certain boundaries. (like realtracks are also very limited in their usage compared to all possible variations in music).
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Don't know where future development may lead.
But I do know that sampling is sampling, whether the sounds are stored separately as notes or taken out of a pcm file makes no big diff AFAIC. But I've done sampling and perhaps have the insight from same behind me. Looping is very important, finding good loop points is maybe 90% of the work in creating a single samplebank. Grabbing the notes out of a recording would make that task extremely formidable if not impossible. And at the "end of the day" would have no gain over present-day MIDI techniques.
Whether stored in a separate databank or in a wav file such as the RealTracks offer, the end result of what you are talking about would be "sampling" in both cases. Only difference would be the method of storing said samples. Current day samplers are much faster at it, for another thing. We know where eah note is, no need to search or chop a file first.
--Mac
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Well I still don't agree there. I mean, it would be much easier for the user. Instead of using a sampler in which every parameter has to be set by the user, using the technique that BiaB allready uses for its realtracks (which is I am convinced) slightly different than the sampling techniques, would mean hit and run and not finding your looppoints, envelopes, or whatever. I mean we can do it also with solo's or chordtracks, which is just a bigger portion with less variations. So yeah it would be much more work for the developers and recording process, but for the users it would be a superb fast and convienient way. Oh and by the way, I have done sampling too, plenty of it and actually I pretty much dislike it. Not the results, but the many parameters to set before actually making the music or soundFX you want to get by playing ur midi keyboard messages into that sampler. It was about 10 years ago I used sampling pretty frequently and up to today I still now and then use it, the only difference with then that I changed from hardware to software sampling. Anyway, still dislike the work in it
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I think you must not understand the inner workings of the realtracks.
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Joined: Dec 2002
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Hi
May i surggest a real band with real musicians, that cuts out all the fantasies and you get just what you are talking about, but if you buy yourself a WX5 you can do exactly what you say all by yourself, i would go for a real musicians every time,
there is going to come a time when what you would like is possible when you think of the progress that has happerned but at the moment PG has made it possible at such a small outlay that everybody can make much more real music but i would still go for real musicians
regards Dave Hoskins
I always play the right notes but not always in the right order
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Hey Guys, I just saw a video that MAY be just what you need, although it will take a little work. Celemony Melodyne is a great program for taking audio note data and changing it, either by pitch, or time. The video I just saw was a demo at NAMM 2009, the CEO of Melodyne was showing the new version off. Pretty cool stuff, but then he really blew my socks off when he took an old recording of Chet Baker, played the MP3 of the solo with the Rhythm section, and then CHANGED CHETS NOTES AND TIME!!!!!!!! You actually get to see the waveform of the tracks, he clicks the mouse and then ALL the instruments get displayed in a Piano roll fashion, just like midi, where every instrument has its own waveform notes. You can then change any note. It was still Chets Trumpet sound, but different notes..........amazing! So in the end, you could take your Real Tracks Trombone solo and change the notes.....same trombone sound!. Here is the Video: http://www.celemony.com/cms/index.php?id=dnaHope that helps, Ed
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Hi Ed
I forgot about that program,i have not had the luck to peruse it yet but you are right when i heard the chet tune i thought that it was amazing so i stand corrected
regards Dave Hoskins
I always play the right notes but not always in the right order
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