PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums Band-in-a-Box for Windows advice on upgrading music setup

I want to update my BiaB music setup. Mostly I use it to create arrangements for accompanying my solo keyboard, and I record sessions on audio tape. I'd like to get opinions on how to modernize this setup, which predates USB. I have a pdf of the layout and connections. Is there some way to post that with a forum query so that respondents can see exactly what I'm trying to replace? Or can somebody at PG give me some advice?

Thanks for your attention,

Reg Neale
rneale@rochester.rr.com

Check your Personal Message.

Reg,
There are a lot of options for upgrading. The biggest issue is 'how much do you want to spend?' Since I'm not sure what you have, and what you want to do, I should assume the worst.

Audio Tape? Whoa. So, probably a newer computer, with a couple of hard drives, and a good sound card.

Solo keyboard doesn't sound like it has additional sounds on it, so a new sound module as well.

Updating to the latest and greatest version of BIAB and Real Band, most likely.

Mixer, maybe?

Depending on what you have, where exactly you want to go, and what you want to do, you *could* be looking at a couple of thousand dollars, not to be discouraging, but realistic.

I'm hoping Matt has given you instructions on how to upload your .pdf, but if you'd like to send it to my e-mail along with a detailed description of what you're looking to do, I'll see what I can suggest.

Gary

Hi Gary. Yes, I sent Reg my email address so I can post his PDF temporarily (when he gets back to me). And yes, this post leads to a bunch of questions, so let's see what he has in mind.

ps I still have my 4-track Teac 3340 sound-on-sound reel-to-reel deck that many of us had in the early 70s, so I'm not going to pre-judge anybody else who has tape. I wonder if mine still works ... a project for a rainy day, I guess.

Sorry to say, but realistic... a couple of thousand dollars??? I wonder what defines realistic here. Especially not knowing his budget, plans, and ideas. To pick out the tape example: A tape has been for many years a (well respected) standard, and is not by definition a bad way of recording. In a way it also brings a certain sound that could be appreciated. Different doesnot mean bad, and old is not by definition crappy. In other words, unless we get more specific details and maybe the pdf file under our attention, there is nothing "realistic" we could say or conclude. I would say, a realistic setup could as well be set up, if the ideas and plans fit more to that, to a couple of hundreds for example. So I just wait and see, what will be following up...

You know Matt back in the 70's when you used the tape machine I bet you spent more time recording music then with fussing with the computer glitches. Look at Rysard ,he has a musical opportunity and he's spending his time here with computer problems.

Hi Matt. Thanks for responding. Does "personal message" mean it was sent to the email address I gave in my query? I have not received any personal message from you in my mailbox.

Reg

I meant the home studio. Yes with a DAW you can do so much more however, and maybe it's 'cause I'm the guy they call, if not setup properly you spend more time fixing then making music. To me the key is:
1. A computer dedicated to the task
2. Keep it off of the internet
3. Don't install every program and add-on you can get your hands on
4. don't get your setup so conveluted that you can't remember from day to day how to make it work
5. Keep it simple

OK, here's Reg's setup diagram: www.mattfinley.com/setup.pdf

He also said:

"I'd like to keep the update expense to less than $1K if possible. My goal is to simplify
the setup. I want to keep the two keyboards but hope to eliminate the patch bay, use digital audio
and record digitally.

Thanks for your help."

AB,
What defines 'realistic'...well, you're right. I had, at the time, no idea what this gentleman had, or what he wanted to do. So, from that, I took the basics of building a workable, higher quality system from scratch, using a new, mid line computer, a Ketron SD2, MIDI and Audion interfaces, a controller keyboard and some other stuff to come up with an answer.

It was, to me, a 'realistic' number to give what he wanted, basically starting from scratch.

Gary

Reg,
WOW.

I guess my first question would be, do you like FM Synthesis? In other words, is there some particular reason you want to keep the Yamaha keyboards? Since most new sounds are ‘sample/playback’, like the D110 and SC50, and the Yamahas are FM synthesis, it seems to me that you would want to upgrade some something newer.

Next comes the G5. Depending on the exact model you have, you can probably use M-Audio sound cards. For the number of modules and keyboards you have, I think the M-Audio Delta 1010LT would be a perfect solution for you.
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Delta1010LT.html
This will eliminate the need for the mixer.

Hard drives. You will need two physical hard drives in your computer, one for the ‘system’ drive, and where you have Band In A Box and whatever DAW program you’re going to use, and then one where you’ll store the audio. You should always use a second drive for storing audio, dedicated to just that.

Software: To record from multiple sources, i.e., two keyboards and two modules, simultaneously, you’ll need to have a program that will allow you multiple audio inputs. As far as Mac goes, I am not in a position to offer suggestions, but Cubase may be one.

Band In A Box will give you a backing track, but only supports one MIDI output and one Audio interface. So, using BIAB as the main application for recording music isn’t that great.
There is Apple Logic Express 8
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LogicExp8/
This is an entry level application for recording audio, and will also give you several software synths along with it, as ‘plug ins.’

You can try Cubase Essential 4
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Cubase4Ess/
Again, entry level for the Mac.

You could spend a little more and go with Cubase 5 Studio, which has unlimited MIDI and audio tracks
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Cubase5Stu/

Finally, you’ll need a MIDI interface. The M-Audio MIDISport 4x4 might be a good idea. I’m sure that the G5 has at least one USB output on it, and you can plug this interface into it, and then direct the outputs from Cubase, or Logic or whatever to the separate midi ports on this.

Finally, I would suggest looking at replacing one or all of your sound devices with something newer. Keeping one of the Yamahas to use as a controller keyboard is okay, but I wouldn’t want to use them for sound generation, unless you really *do* want that FM synthesis sound.
I would recommend listening to the Ketron SD2, and considering replacing the SC50 with this: http://www.pgmusic.com/ketronsd2.htm
If you need help deciding, listen to these demos of the SD2. FYI, the SD2, SD4 and SD5 all use the same sound engine, so you can listen interchangeably and still get the same sound ideas.

Finally, those who use Macs are waiting for the latest release of BIAB that brings the compatibility to that of the PC users. Peter has been promising, but I have no idea when it will happen. That will give you Real Instruments and Real Drums, which will also be a good thing, and you should plan on that upgrade as well.

Welcome to the world of computer audio. We’ll be around to help you.

Gary

After looking at your setup and considering your budget, my advice is

1) Don't replace anything that's working if you're happy with it.
2) Check out Reaper DAW software ($50.00 shareware, updates are free... and it easily rivals the top name products.)
3) Garriton Personal Orchestra and/or Jazz Big Band sample libraries if you want to upgrade midi sounds. ($200.00 each and worth every penny.)

A second (audio only) hard drive is a good idea. There are a number of inexpensive USB audio interfaces for getting your audio into the computer. Perhaps someone else can recommend one of these for you.

All of the above can be done for about $1,000.00.

Have fun,
Dean

Gary, thanks for your detailed analysis. Here are some additional questions to help clarify my goals.

Regarding FM synthesis, my level of musical sophistication is not high. I'm not sure I can tell the difference between FM and sampled sounds.

Keeping one of the keyboards as a controller, as you suggest, sounds like a good move. Also, I looked at the MidiSport 4x4 and that should work fine so I can get rid of the patch bay.

Is there a less expensive alternative to the 1010LT? It does a lot, but I probably don't need that many inputs.

What will BiaB's "real instruments" mean in musical terms? Is that a sound source that would replace the Ketron SD2? How about the Edirol SD20, that's a little more affordable? For that matter, how inferior are the free Quicktime instruments built into the Mac? Again, I'm not sure my ear is good enough to tell the difference, so maybe entry-level or only a little higher would be good enough for what I'm doing.

Any recommendations for an inexpensive digital amp to replace the 20-year old Hitachi stereo?

I really appreciate your taking the time to look at my setup and make suggestions.

Reg

Reg,
Believe me, you can tell the difference between FM and Sample Playback. FM Synthesis uses a variet of mathematical algorithms to model a sound. For their time and place, they were revolutionary. Every song in the 1980s used the Yamaha DX7 electric piano. It was the de facto standard for synths in it's day. But, for 'acoustic' instruments, it still didn't sound 'real.' But, then again, it wasn't. Sample/Playback, also known as 'wavetable' synths are actual digitized samples of real instruments. Ever listen on one of those computerized phone answering things, where it walks you through a whole bunch of stuff? In essence, that's sample playback. You know that they do it by putting bits of recorded words and stuff together to form the sentences. Such as it is with this type of instrument. Maybe you've heard a computer synthesized voice? Doesn't sound real at all, but at least you can understand it. That would be the analogy to FM Synth versus sample playback.

Find a song that is heavy on piano. Play the song back through one of the Yamahas, and then play it back through the SC-50. The SC-50, even though it's early generation sample playback, should still sound much more 'realistic' to you.

You should be able to use the Delta 66 from M-Audio to do much of what you want, or a small Behringer Mixer and a M-Audio 2496, letting you run all the outputs from your gear into a single mixer, and then recording just two tracks at a time. Also gives you a mic preamp, usually, if you want to record vocals.

The Real Instruments are a limited set of instruments that come with the latest PC version of BIAB. PG Music is promising that the Mac version will be out, and will have them, but we still have no time line on that. But, it will replace some of the instrument sounds.

For example, the song is "Dream", and is done in two versions. The first version was done several years ago, using a Korg PA80, and the keyboard played all of the parts
First version: http://www.catsmeowcafe.com/Music/MP3s/Dream.mp3

The second version is using my newer Korg PA800 and Real Instruments. The ONLY part of this that is the keyboard is the melody. All other instruments, including the soloist, are Real Instruments and Band In A Box.
Second Version: http://www.catsmeowcafe.com/Music/MP3s/Dream%20Mix.mp3

As you can tell from listening, the second version is much better, due entirely to the Real Instruments.

I'm not saying you'll get that kind of sound from the Ketron SD2, but I would put the SD2 on par with my PA800. Of course, the price difference is huge, also. My PA800 street price is $2,900, the Ketron can be had for $400 or so. Real Tracks and the SD2 together makes a killer combination.

If your goal is to record backing tracks, like mp3s to play with your keyboard on a live gig, you could do it alone with Real Tracks and the Ketron, and the better of your Yamaha keyboards, if you turn the sound from the keyboard off. For that, the SD2, the M-Audio 2496, BIAB with Real Tracks, and one of the Mac sequencers would, literally, be all you need. Save you a lot of money, too.

Here's the link to Reaper, mentioned above. For $50, it looks pretty good. http://www.cockos.com/reaper/download.php?l=1

As to the amp, I don't know, I use powered monitors, and don't play out. I have KRK Rokit RP5s, which I've been relatively happy with.

Gary