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I'm at the limits of my midi understanding here, and would be grateful if anyone can help me.
My input keyboard is touch sensitive and my output 'synth' responds to the 'touch' input from it. (Am I talking about 'velocity'?)
I want to record some stuff as 'organ'. Just for this, I'd prefer to have no touch response - as a real organ would not. Just absolute on (key down) and off (key released).
In Biab, are there any settings I can use to achieve this ?
Any pointers much appreciated.
Ian G.
Late-developing enthusiast for jazz / blues. Principally pianist
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You should be able to turn off the Touch inside your keyboard somewhere. Consult the manual for the keyboard.
Certain keyboards do this automatically when organ patches are selected, others don't.
--Mac
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I like my organ to have touch sensitivity. Still works, and I've had that thing for years. Never searched for the off button. I did notice an increase in volume when I got glasses with built in bi-focals.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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You can use 'edit-change velocity' in a lot of PGMusic sfotware to change the velocities to full on/off after-the-fact. But as Mac said, the keyboard should have this adjustment also.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Thanks, as always, to all of you who have offered a comment.
In turn:
re Mac's: it is possible to set the (midi-out) keyboard to be not-touch-sensitive for the purposes of playing it directly. But none of the external controls have any effect on sounds created by midi input. It doesn't have the auto-cut-off you mention. The manual, in its implementation chart, has:
Velocity Note ON 9nH, v=1 - 127
Note OFF 9nH, v=0
but I don't understand quite what that means, or, more to the point, how I might use it in Biab.
(I could play what I want directly on the keyboard, and use its onboard sequencer to record it. But the actual keyboard is fairly horrid - that on my midi-in instrument is far superior. I would rather go that way if it is possible. )
re John's: in general, I agree with you, John. I think it's an interesting example of 'our sort of technology' actually pushing the envelope, musically speaking, that it enables us to play pretty authentic organ sounds with touch sensitivity, and the combination gives a different colour to what's played. But in this case, I do want a pedantically-authentic sound, and also there are some 'stretches' in the piece where it's very difficult to sustain the legato without an audbile difference in touch.
And re rharv's: yes, there's more than one way of simulating the effect, post hoc. I could edit the piano roll, for example. But, again, what I really want to do is play it in in the 'real' way.
The simple question remains: can Biab do this, or not ?
BW
Ian G.
Late-developing enthusiast for jazz / blues. Principally pianist
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Gee my sense of humour does not connect without a smirk or wink maybe? I might try another angle and be obtuse but if I get equal about it, you can sum up parts of me as a square. Punishing you all.
On a serious note, unlike the post several above here, I have a Rodgers/Roland keyboard and if I don't want it touch sensitive, I hammer it. But to get the bass the way I like I usually hit the bass notes harder, and transpose down an octave, giving it a sound like pedals.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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BIAB can't do that in realtime.
What is the brand and model of your keyboard?
--Mac
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Quote:
But, again, what I really want to do is play it in in the 'real' way.
The simple question remains: can Biab do this, or not ?
If perchance you're asking whether BB can filter out aftertouch, try this: in the Prefs window, click "Rec. Filter", and untick "Channel Aftertouch". If that doesn't work (possibly because you have "key aftertouch"), I'm not sure what will, but you might also untick "Other Controllers". Worth a try.
But if you're asking if BB can filter the note event to a constant velocity in real time, no, don't think so.
-Ron
EDIT - Oops, sorry, Mac already answered.
Last edited by rkl122; 11/14/09 08:13 PM.
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Thanks, Mac (again) and Ron, for the confirmation that Biab can't do it.
I use a couple of other softwares from time to time between the midi-in and midi-out, and one of them has probably more midi parameters than Biab, so I'll look at that. The trouble is (as I said at the beginning ) I'm pretty much at the borders of my understanding here - I'm not even clear exactly what midi value would be involved.
(for what it's worth: my midi-out is a Yamaha PSR K1, which was basically a short-lived variant on the PSR 293 and 295 models. Cheap kit as an instrument but (to my ear) a pretty good set of samples as a 'hard-synth'. )
Ian G.
Late-developing enthusiast for jazz / blues. Principally pianist
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Mac
2 last supplementary questions, if I may ?
Suppose my midi-out was the Ketron ? Would things be any different - does that have the automatic hard-touch adjust for organ patches you mentioned ?
And it's obvious you've used midi for years. Is there a midi command line that would, with a fair wind and in some other software, do what I'm looking for ?
Best wishes
Ian G.
Late-developing enthusiast for jazz / blues. Principally pianist
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Band-in-a-Box may easily switch off touch sensitivity via Pref/Channels/Options... -> Boost THRU Velocity by "127".
Have Fun
Martin
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The above sounds reasonable, everything would be at the same velocity.
I've not tried it.
The volume on the Ketron seems flat to me, in other words Band in a Box is giving me a master volume but I lose touch sensitivity. In cases where I want that I use the volume slider on my keyboard, as both the ketron and the keyboard are going out to the mixer. So I can 'override' the Ketron and use my keyboard. I'll pull out a midi cable and give you my version of the permutations. I have one or two situations a month where I need volume control, and a put an expression pedal in the mix, so I can mute the playing like you would on an organ.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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John
I appreciate the offer, but hold the front page for the moment. I'll check Martin's suggestion (thanks,Martin); and also I have a hint from another source that 'midi filter' might do it. I've just looked at the screen, and I would have thought that the default settings (which are what I have, never having looked at the screen before ) would already be doing it - but there is the further option of knocking the filter right back to just 'Notes' and seeing what happens.
Will post again in due course.
many thanks
Ian G.
Late-developing enthusiast for jazz / blues. Principally pianist
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Well, guys, this is what online forums are all about. We've got there in the end. We may not strictly have increased the sum of human knowledge, but at least a bit of it is more exposed to general view than it was.
I've checked out three options:
1. Martin's suggestion (switch off touch sensitivity via Pref/Channels/Options... -> Boost THRU Velocity by "127") works absolutely. It means the sound is a bit loud as you record, but adjustable (melody or soloist) on playback, and there is no touch sensitivity at all.
2. I noticed that in the same box is another option - a check box for 'Controllers Thru', which is on by default. I did a recording with this box unchecked, and no Thru Velocity Boost.
3. I've also checked out opt>preferences>RecFilter, and unchecked all boxes except 'Notes' (and no change from default in the Pref/Channels/Options settings. )
Both 2 and 3 gave a very hard touch, but not absolutely touch-insensitive. If you hit a note extra hard there was a slight gain, and if you touched more lightly, there was a significant drop in volume, but the touch was hard enough that you didn't get unwanted micro-variations e.g. when making an awkward leap in the fingering. So either of those settings are actually very useful, because in effect they give you 2 or 3 voices off one setting.
But Martin's (1) does absolutely and exactly what I was looking for.
Many thanks to everyone who contributed
Ian G.
Last edited by idgraham; 11/15/09 06:05 AM.
Late-developing enthusiast for jazz / blues. Principally pianist
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Touch sense is NOT Aftertouch. Two entirely different parameters.
Changing Velocity after the fact isn't the best way to do this either. Blast, blast, blast -- and the player has no sense of dynamics while recording the track. Putting the artist "in the dark" is never a good thing to do.
The Ketron SD2 organ patches do not respond to the Touch data sent by any keyboard. Good thing.
As an old and *real* hammond organist, I need more than just the lack of the touch sensitivity to play a MIDI organ keyboard *corrctly* -- I also must have an Expression Pedal, connected to the MIDI keyboard and set to send CC11 Expression values. But it takes time which may be measurable in years to be able to use the foot properly for dynamics in organ playing. Pumping the pedal in time to the music is the sure sign of a noob.
The MIDI Touch parameter is a CURVE. Most prosumer level and above MIDI controller keyboards offer a selection of different touch curves for the user to pick from and for patches that need touch sensitivity, such as pianos, finding the right Touch Curve for the player's style is essential to getting the most realistic sound. For example, the best of MIDi piano samples can "machine gun" if the touch is set too light for the player. Not realistic and not good.
Many consumer MIDI keyboards do not have the ability to turn off the touch sensitivity on the organ patches. This may be a good thing, however, as one can emulate the Expression Pedal with touch when they don't have the pedal or are not adept at the proper use of the Expression Pedal in organ playing. As with anyhing else, this is accomplished by changing your playing style to suit the occasion. With those kind of conusmer grade keyboards, I find that I like leaving the Touch Sense ON when playing organ patches for that reason.
--Mac
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for future reference pg 43 of the psr-k1"s manual http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/emi/english/port/PSRK1E.pdfThe Touch Response feature gives you the natural expressiveness of an acoustic instrument, such as that of a real piano—letting you dynamically alter the volume of the notes with your playing technique and strength. If you want to disable this feature and have all notes sound at the same volume, set Touch Response to OFF. ■ Turning Touch Response on/off Turn the Touch Response on or off by pressing the [TOUCH] button. When the Touch Response is on, the Touch Response icon in the display lights up. When Touch Response is off, the icon goes out. ■ Setting the sensitivity of Touch Response
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And there is a button on the front panel of the thing labeled, "Touch"...
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I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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But none of that affects the way the keyboard responds to midi from outside.
Ian G.
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I don't get it. I've played B3's since 1963 and used way too many synths to mention. Every synth manufacturer for the last 40 years knows a "audio organ patch" (sorry John <grin>) is not touch sensitive. Your keyboard controller has nothing to do with it, just pick the correct patch on your synth. The dynamics comes from the expression pedal like Mac says. Now, some of the more expensive synths like my Kurzweil also include several "dynamic organ" patches if you need that but I never use it.
Bob
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