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RealBand
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 157
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Posts: 157 |
We have been requesting full VST/VSTi support for the past few years with no response from PG music. Plugins like Waves GTR, NI GTR, Jamstix etc would make the use of Realband (and RealTracks if it is ever re-incarnated) such a pleasure.
The annual December story:
Purchase BiaB/RealBand 2010 - load Realband 2010 with great anticipation - try to load GTR 3 or other VSti - get message saying the plugin cannot load!. Sigh out loud!
This is the annual disappointment played out again!
It it incomprehensible that an arranger/sequencer does not support VST or VSTi in 2010 - it's like making a car and insisting it does not need indicators - i.e just carry on putting your arm out of the window like they did in 1930!
Will be ever see proper VST/VSti support in the PG products?
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RealBand
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Joined: Aug 2006
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I have been hoping for this for some time now, and have to suspect it is something in the coding. Any VSTi that needs timing instructions seems to be a problem. This is the only thing keeping me from using PG programs for most of my tracking. I mean i still upgrade, and use them daily, but for finsih products i drop and drag to another program.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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RealBand
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,793
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Its just a matter of workflow - 1) Band in a Box - 2) Real Band - 3)Reaper and you can have it all. 
BIAB – 2026, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud.
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RealBand
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
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It may still happen.
uring the beta we were told by development that the VST/VSTi implementation in RB and PT only *looks* to the user like it is a "wrapper" to DX because of the way the selection is done from the bottom of the DX window.
Development says that they are using true VST implementation protocols, though.
This was indeed brought up during the beta testing -- loudly and longly -- and perhaps we will get to see it yet. Don't know the particulars or why it evidently isn't an easy coding to get it to happen, though.
We're not supposed to reveal beta testing info in public, but in this case I think it is okay to say this much...
--Mac
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RealBand
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913
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Quote:
Its just a matter of workflow -
1) Band in a Box - 2) Real Band - 3)Reaper
and you can have it all.
Well, this kind of shoots the bragging rights to PG products right in the foot that they are 'economical' do-it-all product line.
I gave up in 2004 with PowerTracksProAudio. That was nearly 6 years ago of development time. My 'economical' upgrades would now be 6x the $29 upgrade price, or $180 just for PTPA alone.
There isn't any other $180 DAW on the market that doesn't support timing references in VST/VSTi.
The price of entry looks attractive for PTPA, and perhaps RB but the feature set once you dive in - can leave one disappointed. I absolutely depend on the timing references for delays, for drumming programs like my Jamstix, for built in arpeggiation and/or modulation effects in VSTi synths, etc.
It appears to me that PG continues to focus on the mindset that most recordists using their programs don't look 'outside' for sound sources. GM Modules and RB tracks are all anyone needs for their products.
Sorry to rant - but this has been an issue for at least 6 years - to add a basic capability that seems that every other respected DAW on the market has in it's basic feature set.
I don't have the data to back this up, but I'm guessing that there's a very limited number of beta testers who use this kind of functionality - the timing references to VST/VSTi - which ends up making it look like a non-issue to PG, or at least a limited issue. Loyal customers will continue to pay for the updates yearly and that fringe that actually uses these features, that use playthrough to plugins and plugins as a composition tool as a must - well they will maybe just go away.
royj, have at it - perhaps I will pass on the mantle to you. Maybe they will listen to you.
I've tired of it. If we could look at the wishlist back 5 years ago, or when we used to use the forum as a wishlist - you would see my posts to your same points. I normally just hang out now on PG because a few of the old-timers here helped me significantly hone my recording chops about 10-13 years ago.
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RealBand
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Joined: May 2000
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Scott never misses the chance when this is the topic.
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RealBand
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Joined: May 2000
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Scott-
"but I'm guessing that there's a very limited number of beta testers who use this kind of functionality "
..not a good assumption..
Beta testers do not have the ability to choose features ..
They can only test what they are given
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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RealBand
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 8,691
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I just want to say i haven't given up hope, and would like to think that this as mac said is on the table. When i started with PG, i used it very little. I have yet to do a full song in PT, and i still track original tunes in MTS after making some of the track beds in BiaB. But i do all backing tracks for live performance in RB now as it allows me to use most of what i want with midi, .kar files, a bit of RTs and RDs, and i can use Jamstix as a drum mod.
But if they could solve the VST1 timing reference issue, that would allow me to use Jamstix and a couple more plugs and would make RB far more useful to me over all. There are a few folks over at the Cakewalk MC forum that have bought the Biab program as well, and they might slowly migrate to RB if it allowed them to use fully their favorite VSTi's.
So in close on this subject, i have confidence that PG dev will get it solved in time. One thing to remember is that cake struggled for about three years in the change over from DX with wrappers to native VSTi, and while mac says that PT and RB, are using VSTi protocols, they have only been using VSTi now for a about two upgrades on PT since version 10 i believe.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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RealBand
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 117
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I am assuming most all of you that have RealBand also use BIAB. Although I would like to have the full VSTi implementation in RealBand I will happily live without it if PG Music keeps developing more RealTracks and features like they have in the last few releases. The new BIAB plugin feature is great to use with any DAW. I use FL Studio but Reaper is very powerful with new features added almost every week and it is only $60. Let the other companies develop all the higher level DAW features that seem to take a lot of development time and PG Music can focus on what it does best. I think RealBand can meet most people's DAW needs but if it doesn't just move on to something else.
Microsoft Surface Pro, Thunderbolt 4, Windows 11, Scarlett Audio Interface, 2025 BIAB & RB, FL Studio Producer, Studio One Producer, Melodyne Editor, Ozone Advanced.
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RealBand
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Joined: May 2003
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I mention this once a year so I'll do it again this year. These programs are a work of love for DR. Gannon. I refer to him as Dr. in this post to bring to mind that Peter is doing something that he totally loves. I want him to continue doing what he wants the way he wants because in doing so he will never get fed up AND SELL OUT TO SONY OR ADOBE. I will always support this company in doing what they do the way they want! Period.
I'd bet almost anything that PG has been approached by Sony & Adobe.
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RealBand
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Joined: Dec 2002
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Quote:
I am assuming most all of you that have RealBand also use BIAB. Although I would like to have the full VSTi implementation in RealBand I will happily live without it if PG Music keeps developing more RealTracks and features like they have in the last few releases. The new BIAB plugin feature is great to use with any DAW. I use FL Studio but Reaper is very powerful with new features added almost every week and it is only $60. Let the other companies develop all the higher level DAW features that seem to take a lot of development time and PG Music can focus on what it does best. I think RealBand can meet most people's DAW needs but if it doesn't just move on to something else.
Have to agree with this:
BIAB is a unique auto-accompanyment application like no other and should continue doing what it does best, including developing Real Tracks for this purpose. And, RB is an excellent application to Interface between BIAB and a full featured DAW for recording.
BIAB – 2026, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud.
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RealBand
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Joined: Aug 2006
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I on the other hand disagree, RB is a DAW, and while it impliments some of the BiaB features it is a true DAW sequencer. Having to move tracks from BiaB to RB then on to any other DAW is a lot of work, and at times a waste of time. All that keeps RB and PTPA for that matter from being a solid steady choice is the VSTi implimentation. It is very solid on midi, does a good job with audio, has decent plugins, and can add RTs and RDs in the drop of a hat.
I know there are folks that love Reaper, and Sonar, and MTS like myself and others here, and that is fine, we will use these tools as we see fitt. But please lets not discourage development of RB and PTPA with VSTi technology, as this just will give us one more very solid tool in the box.
BiaB is one of the true biggies in the field, it stands alone in it's abilities. Nothing even comes close. I for one want that to continue, and for PG to stay on track with that tool. RB and PTPA are great, but they still are not with the big boys as far as DAW work goes for this one simple reason, VSTi timing issues.
I do not say this to bash PG Music at all. I am a loyal fan, and think what the do each year for the user is simply amazing. I am not clamoring for a better GUI, if that happens i hope it is not with comprimise on stability. Or pushing to make BiaB a multitracking DAW, leave it alone as an autoaccompanyment program. I just think that if you are going to impliment VSTi it outta work completely. No DAW will work seemlessly with every VSTi's or DXi's out there for that matter, but the ones that RB and PTPA balk at are solid options that amost every other DAW will work with smoothly.
take this for what it is an encouragement, keep on doing what you do.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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RealBand
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913
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Quote:
Scott never misses the chance when this is the topic.
Actually, it's been quite awhile since I chimed in on this. I just found a kindred spirit to grok with that's all.
Perhaps it's because I find Jamstix so much of my composition toolbox, and easy play-thru of VSTi, lack of having to worry about MIDI channels, etc. Spoiled I guess.
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RealBand
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 117
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 117 |
I like RealBand and because so many of the functions are like those in BIAB I felt very comfortable using it but it is lacking many features available in other DAWs besides full VSTi support. Drawing automation envelopes, beat detection, and multi-core processor support are needed plus quite a few more listed in the wishlist forum. I would gladly switch back to using RealBand if it became a full featured DAW but my fear is that if PG Music spent their engineering resources on those features then BIAB development would be dramatically reduced. That said, most people do not need a full featured DAW and RealBand does everything they need. Those people might also find a DAW like Cubase, Sonar, or Reaper overly complicated and just slows them down.
Microsoft Surface Pro, Thunderbolt 4, Windows 11, Scarlett Audio Interface, 2025 BIAB & RB, FL Studio Producer, Studio One Producer, Melodyne Editor, Ozone Advanced.
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RealBand
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 8,691
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I agree, I would love to see features like the ones mentioned implimented in RB. I would be very interested in using it as my primary DAW. I find Sonar and Cubase to complicated and also very buggy. I have MC3 and 5 from Cakewalk, but truely those are a bit buggy s well. I use Multitrack Studio as my go to DAW, and have tried Reaper, but it kept crashing on my system, and MTS ran smooth from day one. So i use it. It has everything i want in a DAW sequencer. It handles VSTi's better than most and unlike MC5 you do not have to kep adding intrument tracks. Each midi track allows you to drag and drop the synth into it's effects slot and then the output is treated like audio and have effects added right there.
The other thing i like is that unlike PTPA, RB, and Cakewalk programs there is not need to add a buss between the tracks and the master strip to add final effects.
But because i start mostly in BiaB, i would love to go right to RB and finish there.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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RealBand
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Quote:
Each midi track allows you to drag and drop the synth into it's effects slot and then the output is treated like audio and have effects added right there.
This is like Tracktion. A track is a track. If you put midi data into that track, then it expects you to do something with the midi data - like send it outboard or put a VSTi on the output of that track. Then you simply add whatever VST or bus after the VSTi. No limit. If you put audio into that track, then it expects you to treat it like audio. You don't even have to mess with midi channel assignments if you just stick with midi input on that track (you can send midi from other tracks to that track if you want, and then you need to sort out midi channels.).
Tracktion also has a master effects 'slot' dedicated. No need to add it, no need to think it's like anything but a master effects. It's the final stage in the signal chain before things go to analog.
The point I was trying to make is that folks crow about how economical PTPA is or RB is compared to the 'big boys', but if you add the sum total of what they've had to pay yearly in upgrades to get features that begin to resemble the 'big boys' DAW you are at the entry price and higher for those 'big boys' - well, at least some of them.
There are other affordable DAW softwares which have these feature sets included up front. Granted, they are not auto-accomp. and composition tools like RB and BIAB. I like the melding of BIAB and PTPA features into RB, but I still can't see myself going there without good ol' VSTi implementation as I am used to.
There is a new DAW software that looked attractive to me at first, Studio One, from PreSonus, but they've chosen to handcuff their entry level version of this software ($99 I believe) so that it won't use VSTi. You have to pay for that capability in the upgraded version. Bad call I believe.
-Scott
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RealBand
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 886
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 886 |
I use Studio One as my main DAW, and just love it. When you folks mention MTS, are you talking about this software... http://www.multitrackstudio.com/Thanks!
i5 3.20GHz, 32gb RAM, 1tb SSD OS, 12tb HDD, 4gb gForce vid card, 32" monitor, Audient id44, Win10 x64, BiaB/RB 2023, Reaper 6,IK Multimedia Total Studio 3.5 MAX, Waves 10
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RealBand
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
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When I mention MTS, which is not very often here, out of respect for PGM, it certainly means that robust MultiTrackStudio.
Not for everybody, but I think no DAW software is for everybody.
--Mac
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RealBand
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,992
Expert
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Expert
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,992 |
re ..the vst spec.
i may be completely out to lunch here ...
but there might be a very sane reasonable reason why
pg and other companies didnt implement the vst spec and its various options
as fast as some would like.
lets say i own a tech company called freds music software company.
and one of my competitors..berts music company ...
brought out a neat product called "the doodad ".
or TD for short. and TD becomes a standard.
at strategy meetings of freds music company for new products ..
freds tecchies would dearly love to use the neat TD and incorporate it.
but there are concerns..
1. the standard has not been developed by an independent
non commercial standards body.
2. the source code to TD might not be available..
so freds tecchies dont know if there is some deep code
in TD that gives preference to berts products.
so understandeably freds teccchies have some concerns.
3. TD might be changed at any time so berts tecchies would
have to do a mad scramble to incorporate any changes.
i simply note that in various daws ive used some plug ins can give problerms.
youll see this on various daw forums.
i personally feel it might have been better for us music creators
of the world if two things had have happened.
1. the plug in spec had have been developed by a independent standards body.
and..
2. the same standards body (eg the AES) had have developed
a song project interchange standard format , so that users could
easily import their songs into the various daws on the market.
instead of haveing to do things like rendering individual traks.
and importing which can be laborious.
it is very easy to blame pg...but imho there might be cogent technical reasons
why certain things were done at certain times.
retired puter engr....powertracks on amd......NICE !
"what is the black art of audio engineering ?"
my silly songs...motagator.com/bmanning
see my tips in the tips section.
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RealBand
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,457
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"The other thing i like is that unlike PTPA, RB, and Cakewalk programs there is not need to add a buss between the tracks and the master strip to add final effects."
I don't understand this sentence.
There is no buss to be added and both PT and RB have dedicated master output slots built into the mixer, they even have multiple master outs in case you are sending to multiple outputs ..
My wish is that they were easier to get to, without having to first open the mixer or another FX box ..
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®!
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