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There is a lot of folks who say that they can tell the difference between DAW's because of their sound, and there are those that say there is no difference...the endless debate....so here is what I propose....
Lets take 3 or 4 pieces of recorded music, ripped straight from CD's. Place the tracks in as many DAW's as possible, from Kristal to ProTools, Windows-Mac-Linux, etc & render them down to your standard 44.1/16bit .wav files.
I suggest an orchestral classical piece, and good old R&R piece, an acoustic piece like fingerstyle guitar or piano, and a dance-rap-hiphop piece. They would only have to be say, what, 1 or 2 min long snips each, right?
So what do you folks say, would this work? If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong, but I feel that a lot of folks will be able to tell a difference between the files.
The rules?
The ones creating the files agree to run them thru an OUT OF THE BOX SETUP! No tweaks, no adjustments, just the DAW software as it originally sets itself up. Try to match the volume of each manually so the levels stay consistent, no software help. And none of this run it thru the same software 4 times and say that it is different DAW's. Lets keep it up & up.
The listeners agree to use NO type of metering, spectrum analyzers, etc, just using their ears on whatever monitoring they feel comfortable with. They also agree to do the listening test alone, no sharing thoughts, or pooling notes, on the tracks with others.
And EVERYONE agrees that this is a fun test, and will keep it in this spirit, since there will be folks from both sides that will find fault with any result!
What say ye?
=====
This has been posted on the following forums..
TTM
Kristal
Reaper
PG Music
Gearslutz
Please feel free to post it on any others that you feel would like to join the fun!
i5 3.20GHz, 32gb RAM, 1tb SSD OS, 12tb HDD, 4gb gForce vid card, 32" monitor, Audient id44, Win10 x64, BiaB/RB 2023, Reaper 6,IK Multimedia Total Studio 3.5 MAX, Waves 10
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I think I must be missing something here. You propose to take a signal that is on a CD, so it is CD quality, 44.1/16 bit, rip it, and immediately render it to the same quality signal? This is not "down", it's the same. I would not expect to hear any difference. If there were any difference, it would only be a test of the CD ripping and CD burning algorithms.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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No, what I am saying is that after it is run thru the various DAW software AS-IS, and then rendered down from that software, we try to see if there is a difference or not...
I also welcome any other ways to test this idea out....
i5 3.20GHz, 32gb RAM, 1tb SSD OS, 12tb HDD, 4gb gForce vid card, 32" monitor, Audient id44, Win10 x64, BiaB/RB 2023, Reaper 6,IK Multimedia Total Studio 3.5 MAX, Waves 10
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i5 3.20GHz, 32gb RAM, 1tb SSD OS, 12tb HDD, 4gb gForce vid card, 32" monitor, Audient id44, Win10 x64, BiaB/RB 2023, Reaper 6,IK Multimedia Total Studio 3.5 MAX, Waves 10
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 But how can that possibly be?? This one says 'professional' on it, and that one doesn't !? And it cost 5 times as much! It MUST be better.  Mac has said it a hunnerd times
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Quote:
No, what I am saying is that after it is run thru the various DAW software AS-IS, and then rendered down from that software, we try to see if there is a difference or not...
I'm not sure there is such a thing as "as-is". You should set certain things when you begin to record with DAW software. Global recording bit-rate is one of them.
In the cockos link, note that this is not the same as you proposed, since they introduced 24-bit. Even then, no significant difference.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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This ain't gonna be able to prove anything either way.
Gain Staging alone is gonna kill it.
Then there are other factors. Ripping software? Are all Rippers created equal? Doubtful. Soundcard jitter alone can account for what a lot of people may be mistaking for the "sound" of a DAW software, too.
And then, the only criteria for selection would be a subjective evaluation?
This is not a test.
--Mac
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Sounds like the War of the Worlds..."This IS NOT a TEST.
Wow! Aliens have landed.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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I've read this debate ad infinitum - has nearly zero basis in reality - the reality being that we all have different playback equipment, and likely have at most 3 DAW softwares.
There is debate over how many bits are used internally to the DAW, etc. but unless one is listening in a pristine environment on killer monitoring equipment, the likelihood of hearing differences due to the engine inside the DAW software is incredibly small.
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Also the accuracy of the meters and faders in the DAw are not going to be 100% the same. The summing at the master channel strip different. You add the same tracks to three different DAWs ( I have done this several times) and you can never get the settings and path exactly the same resulting in a slightly different end result. If you are only using Audio then that is one thing, but introduce midi and softsynth to the equation and it all goes out the window. I did a test a few years back with three DAWs. MTS, Cakewalk MC and N-Track, using the same midi file, with as close as possible settings and as far as possible the same synths, and i got very different results. One main reason is that every DAW uses Synths a little bit different, and handles the routing differently. Over all the end result was that they all did a decent job and it came down to which one i could work with the easiest, and which one gave me the least resistance to completing a project in a timely manner.
The reason mention this is to point out that to me this is a dead debate, since we each have a certain way of working with our projects and so much comes into play. The type of media in the project, i.e. midi, audio. synths, loops, whatever. The desired effects, and the process to get to the end result are all subjective. For me the process has matured to the point i have gotten into a flow using three DAW programs all for different reasons. I use BiaB for song bed design, because i can go from concept to basic song structure in a short time. RB for Live backing track development after BiaB has had it's way with some of them, and for all work with .kar, and midi files as i can develop a very nice end result processing the midi and adding RTs for realism. MTS for final tracking and mix down of any original tune work that comes from BiaB design, since it has simple basic mastering abilities, due to it's master strip design, that I have not found in any other software.
I have tried other DAWs as well. I loved the REAPER routing capabilities, but on my system it struggled with stability, and i tired of the constant setup required to add in synths and stuff i could do in seconds with MTS. I used Cakewalk stuff early on, but unless i bite the bullet and buy Sonar (way to much money) i don't get all the bells and whistles, and even then cake seems to me to have a buggy way about it.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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In the mixer window of RB is a final output slot that can be used as a master FX slot.
Not sure if this is anywhere near comparable to MTS, but thought I would point it out.
It is labeled A1, at bottom right of mixer screen in default view.
This is where any master limiters, meters, compressors, analyzers, etc can be used on the final mix.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Yes I have started using that, and it will work fine, but still IMHO MTS has a superior signal chain for pure tracking. This is in part due to the caliber of the effects included, and also due in part to the way it handles synths and effects in both audio and midi tracks. I guess the biggest draw for me is the rock solid stable system it has. In any one release there are never more than 2 patches, and usually only 1. And usually that patch is just a very small issue, so with or without the patch it is stable.
None of this in anyway deminishes RB, or BiaB, as they are different animals, and do things MTS does not even attempt. I could not get by without BiaB, and or RB now. I could get by without MTS. BUT the truth be told I chose not to as for the price i think it is the best basic DAW on the market, and it has simplified and enhanced the process for me in ways it is hard to decribe. When mac first suggested it to me i was struggling to get things done. I was bouncing around between N-Tracks, and Cake MC2003. I had tried Tracktion, REAPER, Vegas, Acid, And even a demo of PTPA. Everything i tried streesed out on my system, and had some glaring weakness. I bought and downloaded MTS on a suggestion from mac, and not only did it download smoothly, but it opened up and the setup was 5 minutes, and in the next hour i had recorded, mixed, and mastered a song. I would then go on to record and finish about 10 songs in a row with no issues at all. I even tried to bounce back and use some of the other programs, but they would slow me down and cause issues that delayed and frustrated me.
I have helped out at cakewalk since 2004 and it has always frustrated me that almost every issue that newbies have would have been solved with the purchase of MTS. So MTS, BiaB,and RB are my only used DAW software programs now. I still have several others but they are just there.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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Interesting, thanks for the review. I haven't tinkered with MTS in years.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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MTS please explain what it is and where to find it.
Last edited by edbulmer; 01/23/10 04:59 AM.
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