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Quote:
When all tracks are done, I export them as wav files and move to Reaper for mixing and mastering.
Dear Noel,
One question - could you choose to export a song created as you describe as a midi file, instead of wav files? In other words, when regenerating a single track that has a RealTrack instrument on it, does that regeneration result in changed midi data for the track, such that if you were to export that track in midi format, import it into Reaper and assign a new VSTi to it (such as Kontakt), you would be able to preserve the performance but use a different instrument to render that performance?
Thanks!
Brett
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MIDI is MIDI, realtracks are audio
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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So the audio in a RealTracks file is not triggered by midi events? I thought that BIAB generated the song with midi data, and if you are using RealTracks that midi data is used to trigger actual audio of actual musicians playing the notes generated by BIAB. Is this not correct?
Last edited by bharris; 02/08/11 02:10 PM.
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Just the 'play' button is the only trigger.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Real Tracks are recorded by live musicians at a certain BPM. BIAB then stretches or compresses the audio time wise (if needed) to match the BPM of your song. It also changes the pitch (if needed) to match the key of your song. Nothing to do with MIDI.
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'Au contraire!' ... or so I think.
Look at the RealBand 2011 video at about 11:40. You'll see that there is now an underlying midi track ... or probably more acurately put ... parallel midi track for at least some RealTrack instruments.
Presumably it shows the transposed melody lines generated from the chord/ arrangment structure used in/ by the song to generate the real track.
So you apparently can have your midi and eat it, too. If the midi track is there, you surely must be able to route it to a soft or hard synth for doubling or export the midi file for any other purpose.
While the underlying audio was recorded by real musicians in real time ... there has to be a mechanism to tell the realtrak 'engine' what key, tempo and chord progression to use in compiling the realtrack as used for a particular song. My money is that the front end ... where you enter your chords a la BIAB, is midi giving those messages to the compiling or generating engines for the audio.
Either they've back tracked and used something like Melodyne DNA to extract the midi fromt the RealTracks, or they knew the original scores for the different variations and as the program transposes them for the realtack, it generates a new midi file reflective of exactly how the midi messages tell the RealTrack generating engine to compile ... as in which variation to choose at any particular chord transition of the original song.
How else could it be?
Prado
Last edited by Prado; 02/08/11 03:48 PM.
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The midi that is generated by the Realtrack is so that there is a "chart" that you can view, and learn from. Not so that it generates the RT. This feature was added recently.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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I understand it is a new feature. MIDI is a programming language that can be used for many things besides triggering sounds.
However, even before when you entered chords or imported a *.sgu or *.mgu file with midi data ... that data still must have been the front end 'trigger' to cause the compiling of the RealTracks. There's not a little man in the program who goes and gathers the data after each chord you enter.
If you look at the midi in the track at about 11:40 in the video you see that it looks like it's showing a lot more midi note data than simply chords you'd see in a chart.
There also seems to be notation windows that follow the RealTrack with the blinking red notes ... or in the fret board you can see double stops. That looks like a lot more than a chart.
Prado
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Quote:
I understand it is a new feature. MIDI is a programming language that can be used for many things besides triggering sounds.
However, even before when you entered chords or imported a *.sgu or *.mgu file with midi data ... that data still must have been the front end 'trigger' to cause the compiling of the RealTracks. There's not a little man in the program who goes and gathers the data after each chord you enter.
If you look at the midi in the track at about 11:40 in the video you see that it looks like it's showing a lot more midi note data than simply chords you'd see in a chart.
There also seems to be notation windows that follow the RealTrack with the blinking red notes ... or in the fret board you can see double stops. That looks like a lot more than a chart.
Prado
RealTracks with an "N" in the Chart column of the Assign RealTracks to Track dialog can display notation showing the notes that are being played. Some Guitar RealTracks also show tab, and accurate on-screen fretboard guitar display to show what is being played on guitar.Most RealTracks display notation, i.e. RealCharts, showing the notes that are being played. To see which instruments have RealCharts, visit the Assign RealTracks to Track dialog and sort column 11, "Chart." Instruments with an "N" or "Gt" in this column have RealCharts.
- Instruments with "Gt" in the Chart column have RealCharts with accurate guitar tab and on-screen guitar fretboard display.
- If the instrument is Acoustic Piano and there is an "N" in the Chart column, the instrument has a Jazz piano RealChart.
- The various other instruments with an "N" (Pedal Steel, Slide Guitar, Resophonic, Trumpet, Alto Sax, Tenor Sax) have RealCharts in standard notation.
The RealCharts can be saved to MIDI files or with Band-in-a-Box songs (MGU).
I don't know if MIDI has anything to do with the creation of the Real Tracks in a song but I am sure a man or gal is playing it. 
Brian
BIAB 2026 Ultrapack- Fender Studio Pro 8, Windows 11, Mac Mini M4 with Logic Pro 11, Melodyne Studio, Luna Pro
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Thanks, Brian.
It's not a question of whether someone is really playing it originally at some tempo and key, printed right down to an audio file.
The questions are: to what extent the front end of the compiling for any given song uses midi to tell the ... for lack of better language ... the RealTracks 'engine' what part of the audio to select, time stretch and pitch shift to come up with the RealTrack? (Samplers triggering real audio to midi messages are nothing new. I'm sure the RealTracks 'engine' is built upon that concept.)
The other question would be (and thanks again for your above helpful amplification and direction!) how the chart comes out 'right' after you have selected a key, tempo and progressions? I think obviously, there must be ongoing compiling of an underlying data set ... otherwise there would be no way for the program to show you the data synced to your song creation.
Prado
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Admittedly, I was doing some guessing, based on many years of programming experience (but not BIAB type). I haven't looked at the video, so I can't speak to that. However, I still think the RT generation can be done w/o any MIDI related messages to an "engine". All the info needed is in the chord chart window. If you listen to the raw RT WMA files, I think you'll find each "set" plays over the same sequence of chord changes at a fixed BPM. Therefore, appropriate playing for any chord in the song key can be found to fit the chord chart. I'm not saying I'm right, but I could be. Only PG Music knows for sure.
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@HogTime ... I love a good discussion ... even when I'm blowin' smoke!
I'm going with 'Occam's Razor' ... the simplest explanation that could fit the facts.
Why would you take a midi auto arranging program's files (which I'm pretty sure are only 'proprietary' midi with a diffent file extension and a few other tricks), convert that to some new code to compile audio from a virtual sampler (which is what RT is) and then develop some more new code now to compile midi data for charts in RT?
Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to use the same 'front end' midi data and then only trigger your virtual sampler 'compiler' with it?
But! You may be right.
Prado
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Quote:
Quote:
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RealBand does not have the TC Helicon harmony feature UNLESS you also have purchased and installed PowerTracks. See the feature comparison chart, here: http://www.pgmusic.com/salesfaq1.htm#6
Matt, that got changed with RB 2011. It now has this feature without power tracks.
Brian
Good to know, thanks.
Do you have a source for your info please?
PG Music's site chart still says it does not include this, and there is no mention of this in the announcement of RealBand by Peter Gannon, here: http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=297201&an=0&page=0#Post297201
nor in the most recent update, here: http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=306777&an=0&page=0#Post306777
[I cannot see any reason anyone would buy PowerTracks now if this difference is eliminated.]
RealBand 2011 – 50 cool new features!
RealBand 2011 is more powerful and easier to use than ever, and now it sounds better than ever too.
We′ve made big improvements to the sound of the RealTracks with a new élastique Pro V2 time stretching and pitch transposition engine so that they sound more natural over a much (3x) wider range of tempos. And we′ve made the size of the RealTracks much smaller, so that they now only take up 30% of the space that they used to. The new version will shrink the size of your existing RealTracks too, so that you can free up lots of space on your drive.
You can now have RealTracks styles changes within a song, and generate Soloist Medleys – solos that play RealTracks instruments during the solos. Soloists can now have a "bluesy" setting.
RealCharts have been added, so you can see, and print, notation for the RealTracks you generate.
There are lots of improvements to the StylePicker, including additional columns of information, new filters, auto-generated memos, and the ability to use Band-in-a-Box MultiStyles (up to 16 substyles) with RealTracks.
There are new MIDI and audio transpose options for key signature changes, replacing the previous Yes/No dialog for MIDI transpose. Tempo changes are easier too, with improved audio time stretching from the new élastique Pro V2 time stretching and pitch transposition engine.
You can now generate MIDI solos and MIDI harmonies, and also add audio harmonies to audio tracks using the built-in audio harmonies feature in Band-in-a-Box and PowerTracks Pro Audio.
Info on Realband
I don't see a real need for myself to use Power Tracks instead of Real Band
Brian
Thanks again. I still cannot find anything in writing that says RealBand without PowerTracks has the TC Helicon harmony feature. Would you be so kind as to point me to that info?
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Quote:
Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to use the same 'front end' midi data and then only trigger your virtual sampler 'compiler' with it?
If that were the algorithm, I should think there'd be notation for all RTs, since every style has midi patterns defined, whether or not a RT is assigned to a part.
EDIT - Correction, obviously when a part is undefined for a style, there're no midi patterns for that part. But a RT can still be generated for it. Which I think makes the same point I was shooting for 
EDIT2 On the other hand, it does not appear that a RT will generate if styles are completely disabled. Which maybe weakens my point.
You guys are discussing the most interesting question: how do they do it? And you're both right. We don't know, and they ain't saying.
BTW: new patch out.
-Ron
Last edited by rkl122; 02/09/11 05:19 AM.
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Matt I cannot find anywhere in exact text about not having to have Power Tracks to do audio harmony anymore. But I think I just tried it out on the right click menu on a audio track and it was there. I do not have PT installed on my system so my guess is that it either pulls it from BIAB or just a new feature in 2011. We have had discussions on this topic going back in december. December Thread We might just call it a easter egg I suppose. Brian
BIAB 2026 Ultrapack- Fender Studio Pro 8, Windows 11, Mac Mini M4 with Logic Pro 11, Melodyne Studio, Luna Pro
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If my recollection is correct, satff stated it was available now.
They sure ain't publicized it much though.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Right, as I mentioned, it is specifically not the case as per PG Music's chart.
I don't recall talking about that in the beta testing, or I would not have asked for someone to explain it. Thanks, Bob and Brian.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Prado,
The way notation charts for RealCharts works is that a MIDI chart is made of the original RealTrack raw recording. This was originally done by humans, one note or phrase at a time, then Pitch-to-MIDI programs were implemented, but still the need for human intervention to correct things here and there, sometimes more here than there (GRIN) as it is rather easy for fast passages and the like to overwhelm most of the available softwares that attempt to do that. Then along came Melodyne, which is hands down the best program at Audio-to-MIDI conversion.
To hear the "raw" realtrack file, simply look in the realtracks folders and play any one of the .wma or .wav realtracks file using the Media Player.
But the converters to do that do not reside inside BiaB. Just the painstakingly created original MIDI chart that corresponds to certain of the RealTracks. That's why not all of the RealTracks support MIDI notation - there are a goodly amount that were created *before* notation for RealTracks were added as a feature.
You should try exporting one of the Realtracks' MIDI notation and see how it plays in your DAW using your chosen synths.
First thing you will likely have to do is change all the note velocities to something other than zero in order to hear them. And don't expect them to sound exactly like the realtrack they are used to notate, there are likely plenty of places where note durations may be different from what was actually played (yet long enough to notate correctly) and other factors as well that may not make them desirable for use in performance.
That said, give it a try, you may discover something or some combination that sounds good and as Duke Ellington once quipped, "If it sounds good it IS good!"
--Mac
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Thanks Mac. Sweat, consternation and Melodyne it is then.
And thanks for the tips on 'zero velocity.' I'm sure it would have stumped me for a bit had I thrown those files in my DAW without looking carefully.
I submit there still is some midi compiling going on with he RT charts ... apparently using the chord information to transpose the charted passages to the proper scales for the key changes for any RT that has charts.
I also thought it was interesting when I read somewhere on the forum here that you get better results by simplifying the chord structures ... apparently letting the RTs 'stretch out,' as opposed to doing a lot of dinking and dunking with fast changes.
I'm still convinced there is a virtual sampler under the hood that takes the chordal and tempo info for a particular run of beats or bars in the same key signature, uses that to select the best matching file and then tempo and pitch shifts it accordingly ... a process continued until all the chords are addressed.
Longer passages, i.e., fewer chord changes, would let the player work the phrase ... since presumably every sample always starts playing from the beginning any time it is triggered. Time to brush up on my chord simplification substitution.
Time to take out the credit card.
Prado
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