|
Log in to post
|
Print Thread |
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,275
Veteran
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,275 |
It appears impossible to enter chords such as Eb whenever some Alto Sax is selected via the Notation Options. Eb quite recalcitrantly will be denoted as D#.
Just perform some simple experiment:
With Notation Options 'concert clef' settings enter somewhere F# an Gb into the chord sheet. No problems up until now.
Yet now change 'concert key' to 'Alto Sax' in the Transpose Options of the Notation Window Options and watch F# Gb turn into D# D#, thus losing their functional distinction. Likewise D# Eb turn into C C.
This glitch may deserve attention with some upcoming patch.
Martin
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 12,822
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 12,822 |
I can understand the F#/Gb becoming D#/Eb; however, were you expecting the C to become B-sharp (B#)? Don't think I've ever seen that notated (and a B# signature is two sharps and five double sharps). I suspect most players wouldn't know what to do with it (other than mentally converting it to the key of C and now your back where you started).
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,275
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,275 |
Quote:
I can understand the F#/Gb becoming D#/Eb ...
That's the important issue. The other example is just that -> an example. Potentially emphasizing problematic early design decisions, such as not supporting notes or chords like B# (haven't seen a B# chord either up until now).
The issue is losing the functional distinction for transposing instruments. An Eb chord deprived Alto Sax player likely is an unhappy Alto Sax player ...
Martin
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
In the Notation Options window is a place where you can check to have the chords display as harmonic or enharmonic. I've had problems getting that function to work in the past, it was a sometimes thing, but you should give that a try and see what you get. As I recall my particular problem, it was that songs previously laid out would not change the chords accordingly, but New songfiles made after toggling that would.
--Mac
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,275
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,275 |
Things are getting worse.
Via some reflex arc type reaction and prior to posting I sure did check on this "chord scale for enharmonics" checkbox stuff in the Notation Options, to no avail. The Help file emphasizes this checkbox ist meant for notes, not for the display of chord symbols.
What is getting worse now? Up until now I was under the impression, the vanishing of Eb chords, say, happens with the Transpose Options of the Notation Window Options only. I sort of was under the impression (without double checking) that a simple and genuine transpose action from C to A, say, would transpose the Lead sheet properly. Alas, it doesn't.
Maybe the Eb was a Boojum after all ...
Martin
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,608
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,608 |
You can change notes one at a time by right clicking on the note and in the menu that pops up change the note ie: G# to Ab Later, Ray
Asus Q500A i7 Win 10 64 bit 8GB ram 750 HD 15.5" touch screen, BIAB 2017, Casio PX 5s, Xw P1, Center Point Stereo SS V3 and EWI 4000s.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,275
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,275 |
Hi Ray,
thanks for the pointer - I am very much aware of this feature. PG Music introduced this option a couple of years ago, after piling up pertinent requests on the wishlist. Now you may assign accidentals to your notes ad lib.
However, this thread is about chord symbols. Here BB behaves *not* according to the rules ...
Martin
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 46
Enthusiast
|
|
Enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 46 |
I have also been annoyed at how BIAB transposes. I play saxes and see some weird progressions when I transpose the lead sheets. I have been figuring out the rules that BIAB uses for transpositions, with the intention that I will offer some suggestions for improvements in the wishlist section.
Here are the transpositon rules that I have observed when transposing for Eb Alto. What I did was write chords in concert key on every step of the chromatic scale, using both sharps and flats for the "black keys". Then I transposed the notation for alto sax, and then transposed the key of the song to every possible major key.
1. Whether a chord root is a sharp or a flat depends on the key that you are transposing to.
- a. Chord roots go by the key signature of the new key.
- b. If the chord root is not in the new key, BiaB prefers flats, with the following excetptions.
- c. Exception 1. If the new key is C, G, D, or A, then add a sharp to the key signature to predict what roots will be flats or sharps. -- Don't do that for the key of E, there will be a Bb instead of A#.
- e. Exception 2. In the key of F, there will be an F# instead of Gb.
2. If a note or chord root can be written as a natural instead of a sharp, flat (or double sharp or double flat) it will be. Therefore a IV chord in Gb will be a B rather than a Cb, and an E#mb5 will always be written as Fmb5.
3. BiaB does not like the key of F# -- it gives you Gb instead. Combine this with the rule above and you get interesting results when you have a IV chord. So, if a piece is in the concert key of A, and you transope for Alto sax you get key of Gb, and when you have a I-IV-V progression, the music will switch from mostly flats for the I and V chords to mostly sharps for the IV chord.
Things that BiaB does not take into consideration when transposing:
1. Spellings of notes in chords. Many of the chords BiaB chooses contain double sharps or flats. It would be nice if there were different cut-off points for naming non-scaletone chords in order to avoid double sharps and flats in the chord tone spellings. Flats make more sense for roots of augmented chords, and sharps make more sense for diminished chords. Major and minor are in between.
2. BiaB does not recognize keys of the moment. Therefore a ii-V-I in a temporory key could be written partly as chords containing sharps and partly with flats.
I hope this is helpful to someone. I'll have to wait to another day to write up my wishlist ideas. I should have gone to bed a couple of hours ago, but wanted to share what I learned about BiaB's tranposing rules first.
Jim
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 12,822
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 12,822 |
That was a nice analysis of BIAB behavior. Thanks for sharing that.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,473
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,473 |
Very interesting, Jim!
As a horn player, I had noticed some of these things and shrugged them off, since I would fix them in a notation program. You have provided a very methodical analysis that should be helpful to PG Music. Thank you for doing that.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
Yes indeed, that is the most comprehensive listinmg of the situation I've seen.
I hope Development makes a copy and checks it out...
--Mac
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 216
Apprentice
|
|
Apprentice
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 216 |
Could this be why when importing an mp3 made in biab it gets the chords wrong most of the time? Perhaps they share the engine/code.
Ron
`15 Audiophile, Toshiba17", 3Mhz, 4gig ram, 500gig HD, Win7, Tascam 122mkII interface, Tascam 16 track 8 buss recording mixer, 2 Avalon747sps,CAD VX2 mic, AKG C1000s, mac and Digital Performer.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,473
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,473 |
No, this thread is about transposition.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 216
Apprentice
|
|
Apprentice
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 216 |
Doesn't it involve the same chord engine/code?
Ron
`15 Audiophile, Toshiba17", 3Mhz, 4gig ram, 500gig HD, Win7, Tascam 122mkII interface, Tascam 16 track 8 buss recording mixer, 2 Avalon747sps,CAD VX2 mic, AKG C1000s, mac and Digital Performer.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,473
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,473 |
A fair question, but I think the two processes are completely unrelated. One involves recognizing chords. The other involves converting already-known chords to another key.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 46
Enthusiast
|
|
Enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 46 |
Ron, BiaB's chord naming rules that I outlined above only effect whether a certain chord is named as a flat or with the equivilent sharp. You can see this in Audio Chord wizard by changing the "key sig" dropdown box - one chord can be G# if you have the key of E selected, and the same chord will be Ab if you have the key of Eb selected - but those are just two names for the same chord. It does not explain why Audio Chord Wizard gives you the "wrong" chords.
Here's a list of things that affect the chords that ACW reports.
1. the bass does not always play the root. I just recorded myself on All of Me, so I was able to compare the actual notes in BiaB to the chords that ACW found in the audio recording. In the 3rd and 4th measures there is an E7 chord, but on the 4th measure the bass was not playing an E, he was playing C#-B-G-E. On the first beat of that measure ACW saw C#-E-G#, which is a C#min, then applying the chord naming rules for the key of C, it called the chord Dbmin (which is equivilent to C#min). On the third beat, ACW saw G-B-D and E and called it a G chord. That's not what the chords are "supposed to be", but it matches the actual bass notes plus a couple of other notes that were being played at the same time. It was easy to see why ACW chose the chords it did, but the chords did sound funny when I played them back in BiaB.
2. Background sounds and percussion instruments can make pitches that are recorded as notes in ACW.
3. Musicians don't play only chord tones, and melodies don't just include chord tones. Sometimes it is hard to figure out what notes are the chord tones and which are not.
4. ACW can only resove 2 chords per measure. If the piece has more then results will be unpredictable.
5. If your bars are not aligned properly in ACW then ACW can be looking notes from 2 different chords.
6. Often a group of notes can belong to a number of different chords. Is C-E-G-A a C6 or an Am7? Maybe it's really supposed to be an FMaj7 but no one is playing the bass note one this particular beat. Maybe one of the notes is a passing tone or a tone from a percussion instrument and the chord is supposed to be something else altogether.
Jim
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 46
Enthusiast
|
|
Enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 46 |
I have looked at how BiaB transposes minor keys and I have found that the rules it uses are exactly the same as for the relative major (the key with the same number of sharps or flats).
(The following issue applies when transposing notation for Bb and Eb instruments. It does not always apply when transposing a song while still displaying it in concert key)
Those rules do not take into account the raised seventh of the harmonic minor. A diminished seventh chord can be built starting on the raised seventh of a minor key, and this can be a substitute for the V7(b9). Unfortunately, anytime the raised seventh of a minor key occurs on a "black key" BiaB call it a flat intead of a sharp. (A flat tonic instead of a raised seven.)
A strict spelling of diminished seventh chords by thirds (rather than by enharmonics) always results in double flat chord tones when the root is a flat. Starting on a sharp results in chord tones that are naturals.
Following is what BiaB gives for dim7 chords, followed by what they should be -- both spelled by thirds (BiaB will never display double flats, but this is to show why diminished chords should never start on flats. That is going to be one of the first improvements that I suggest.)
Key of Amin. Abdim7 - spelled by thirds this would be Ab-Cb-Ebb-Gbb. It should be G#dim7 = G#-B-D-F (much better)
Key of Dmin. Dbdim7 = Db-Fb-Abb-Cbb. Should be C#dim7 = C#-E-G-Bb.
Key of Emin. Ebdim7 = Eb-Gb-Bbb-Dbb. Should be D#dim7 = D#-F#-A-C.
Key of Gmin. Gbdim7 = Gb-Bbb-Dbb-Fbb. Should be F#dim7 = F#-A-C-Eb.
Key of Bmin. Bbdim7 = Bb-Db-Fb-Abb. Should be A#dim7 = A#-C#-E-G.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 216
Apprentice
|
|
Apprentice
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 216 |
Hi Jim, I understand about the chord names changing according to the key sig. But it sounds like Wizzard is still a bit ambitious for this feature which seems to be a novice at recognizing chords. I could call myself a sight reading wizzard untill you put a new chart in front of me. I'd suggest ACCS..... that would be crap shoot. {;^)>
Ron
`15 Audiophile, Toshiba17", 3Mhz, 4gig ram, 500gig HD, Win7, Tascam 122mkII interface, Tascam 16 track 8 buss recording mixer, 2 Avalon747sps,CAD VX2 mic, AKG C1000s, mac and Digital Performer.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box 2026 for Windows Special Offers End Tomorrow (January 15th, 2026) at 11:59 PM PST!
Time really is running out! Save up to 50% on Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® upgrades and receive a FREE Bonus PAK—only when you order by 11:59 PM PST on Thursday, January 15, 2026!
We've added many major new features and new content in a redesigned Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®!
Version 2026 introduces a modernized GUI redesign across the program, with updated toolbars, refreshed windows, smoother workflows, and a new Dark Mode option. There’s also a new side toolbar for quicker access to commonly used windows, and the new Multi-View feature lets you arrange multiple windows as layered panels without overlap, making it easier to customize your workspace.
Another exciting new addition is the new AI-Notes feature, which can transcribe polyphonic audio into MIDI. You can view the results in notation or play them back as MIDI, and choose whether to process an entire track or focus on specific parts like drums, bass, guitars/piano, or vocals. There's over 100 new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®.
There's an amazing collection of new content too, including 202 RealTracks, new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two RealDrums Stems sets, XPro Styles PAK 10, Xtra Styles PAK 21, and much more!
Upgrade your Band-in-a-Box for Windows to save up to 50% on most Band-in-a-Box® 2026 upgrade packages!
Plus, when you order your Band-in-a-Box® 2026 upgrade during our special, you'll receive a Free Bonus PAK of exciting new add-ons.
If you need any help deciding which package is the best option for you, just let us know. We are here to help!
Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® Special Offers Extended Until January 15, 2026!
Good news! You still have time to upgrade to the latest version of Band-in-a-Box® for Windows® and save. Our Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® special now runs through January 15, 2025!
We've packed Band-in-a-Box® 2026 with major new features, enhancements, and an incredible lineup of new content! The program now sports a sleek, modern GUI redesign across the entire interface, including updated toolbars, refreshed windows, smoother workflows, a new dark mode option, and more. The brand-new side toolbar provides quicker access to key windows, while the new Multi-View feature lets you arrange multiple windows as layered panels without overlap, creating a flexible, clutter-free workspace. We have an amazing new “AI-Notes” feature. This transcribes polyphonic audio into MIDI so you can view it in notation or play it back as MIDI. You can process an entire track (all pitched instruments and drums) or focus on individual parts like drums, bass, guitars/piano, or vocals. There's an amazing collection of new content too, including 202 RealTracks, new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two RealDrums Stems sets, XPro Styles PAK 10, Xtra Styles PAK 21, and much more!
There are over 100 new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®.
When you order purchase Band-in-a-Box® 2026 before 11:59 PM PST on January 15th, you'll also receive a Free Bonus PAK packed with exciting new add-ons.
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® today! Check out the Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available.
Happy New Year!
Thank you for being part of the Band-in-a-Box® community.
Wishing you and yours a very happy 2026—Happy New Year from all of us at PG Music!
Season's Greetings!
Wishing everyone a happy, healthy holiday season—thanks for being part of our community!
The office will be closed for Christmas Day, but we will be back on Boxing Day (Dec 26th) at 6:00am PST.
Team PG
Band-in-a-Box 2026 Video: The Newly Designed Piano Roll Window
In this video, we explore the updated Piano Roll, complete with a modernized look and exciting new features. You’ll see new filtering options that make it easy to focus on specific note groups, smoother and more intuitive note entry and editing, and enhanced options for zooming, looping, and more.
Watch the video.
You can see all the 2026 videos on our forum!
Band-in-a-Box 2026 Video: AI Stems & Notes - split polyphonic audio into instruments and transcribe
This video demonstrates how to use the new AI-Notes feature together with the AI-Stems splitter, allowing you to select an audio file and have it separated into individual stems while transcribing each one to its own MIDI track. AI-Notes converts polyphonic audio—either full mixes or individual instruments—into MIDI that you can view in notation or play back instantly.
Watch the video.
You can see all the 2026 videos on our forum!
Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®
With your version 2026 for Windows Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
- MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
- Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
- Playable RealTracks Set 5
- RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
- SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
- Android Band-in-a-Box® App (included)
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums57
Topics85,814
Posts796,515
Members39,964
| |
Most Online25,754
Jan 24th, 2025
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dansk
Deutsch - Windows
Español
Français - Windows
Italiano - Windows
Nederlands
Polski
Português
Svenskt
русский
Japanese
Simplified Chinese
Traditional Chinese
Korean