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If you’ll notice in my somewhat harsh criticism of the clip, I never said the guy was a bad guitarist. He would have to be technically advanced to pull this off. And the fact that he transposed this from another instrument and memorized it is also impressive. But when I judge music, I do it based on what my ears hear. Not based on how difficult it is to pull off “musical chaos at light speed”, which is an apt description of this clip IMHO. My reaction to it would be the same regardless of instrument or genre. Find the stop button ASAP! LOL. Especially when there is no discernable melody or direction of the piece. A lot of talented musicians fall prey to the “speed trap” as they advance. Banjo players are notorious for it! A good 3 finger style banjo player can smoke even this guy in the clip if raw speed is all you’re looking for. I can’t help but be reminded of the line from the Beatles song every time I hear “speed playing”. Quote:
I've got no kick against modern jazz,
Unless they try to play it too darn fast.
And lose the beauty of the melody
It’s fine if that’s your cup of tea, …… but I don’t want to take a sip from it. Not even a small one.
The reason why there are so many different types of music is there are so many types of listeners who want to hear different things. That doesn't make any of us wrong about our preferences. Just different.
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Just think about the brain signal being sent to those fingers, lol. Must have a fast connection :P
Trax
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Been following this thread with a little interest and then saw bobcflatpicker's quote of the Chuck Berry song "Rock and ROll music" the Beatles covered and thought I agree with that!!!
I play guitar on the principle that it is not the notes you play but the silence in between that makes your playing good.
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One thing I have learnt from playing a lot of different instruments - never chase speed. The search for fast playing leads to stumbling and stumbling around is poor practice. Practice slow and exact and speed just natural comes after a few years - the psychomotor brain steps in and says 'I can do that for you' the thinking mind no longer is directly involved. 2] I just love going through Soul Eyes on Sax with just G and F  (concert) Its so good for the spirit.
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Look, Bebop is in a class by itself.
One must develop along the musical path in order to be able to understand and appreciate it.
My ears found this fellow to be quite melodic, but after all, look whose solo he transcribed...
No need to make fun or be derogatory about something that you do not or cannot hear and understand, though.
BTW - I have no doubt that this guitarist knows and can play ALL the chords in any inversion and position. A also notice that many of the derogatory comments are coming from those who ask the questions about chord naming and convention.
There is more to music than the one and three...
--Mac
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Beebop as described by an old school jazzer.
"They flat their fifths and we drink ours." I can remember who said that but google will figure it out faster. I think the dude was talking about Bird, but some substances may have been involved.
I'm still in no need of listening to it. I'm working on slowing down funkifyzing jazz tunes and playing crazy riffs.
Sing a song every day, even if it's a sad one with a fried voice. Gets ya further up the line.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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I have to put my 2¢ in...
Can the guy play? Absolutely.
Did I enjoy it? Not really that much...
The arrogance of some musicians that believe one must be "mentally developed to be prepared, sophisticated, mature enough to appreciate the finer things in life, the depth & breadth, the nuances, blah...blah... blah..." drives me up a wall!
It's just another elitist..."the peons would never fully appreciate a fine cognac like this" type thinking.
When I listen to music, I never say to myself, "I wonder how much he REALLY knows."
Who cares? When listening...it's just a matter of taste. Not mental preparedness.
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After finally listening to the clip and reading some, but not all, of the remarks, several thoughts come to mind.
I had a yard sale last year in which I sold some videos and DVDs. I asked (and got) $2.00 for the tapes and $5.00 for the disks. Of course, there was one guy who ragged on me about the prices. "Last yard sale I went to I bought tapes for twenty-five cents." MANY thoughts came to mind, none of which I voiced, but here are some.
1. Why don't you go back there?
2. These would be more.
3. If you want to brag about how broke you are, that's not my problem.
4. I'm not selling plastic, I'm selling content. Those who paid my price appreciated what they got.
All of which, if you think about it, relates to this discussion. If you don't like something, fine, but why poormouth it? You are just revealing your own deficiencies. NOT pointing fingers here as I have plenty of my own. Just sayin' Ac-CEN-tu-ate the Pos-i-tive.
I severely dug it. Couldn't play it in a million years, but I've got the education and experience to know what I'm listening to. Would I make my girlfriend listen to an evening of it? No. But if I was on my own I'd be there tapping my foot and sincerely applauding what it took to develop the chops that made it possible.
Jes' my two centibucks' worth.
Richard
P.S.: One of J. S. Bach's many sons dismissed his father's work as cacophony. I keep thinking about changing my signature line, but it keeps being appropriate . . .
Last edited by Ryszard; 06/30/11 08:46 AM.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Many years ago I stopped trying to take my wife to Jazz Shows - she is a country gal and it just seemed to pain her so to sit though solo after solo - and let me tell you she would let me know it. So over the years my ears have grown much more comfortable with country, to the point I can enjoy it now. But jazz was my first love and while I love my wife - I still sneek away by myself to hear those cats howl. So beauty is indeed in the ear of the beholder. BTW, tonight wifey and I are going to see Lee Greenwood - Oh boy! Otherwise, as an individual who has fought with the guitar for years and years, I do feel I can recognize talent when I see\hear it. And this guy has it. Oh and just for the record, I actualy liked how it sounded - heck I would stand up and clap at the end.  So anyone keeping count on the yea's and nays for this poor fellow?
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Richard, Quote:
If you don't like something, fine, but why poormouth it? You are just revealing your own deficiencies. ………………….I've got the education and experience to know what I'm listening to.
Seriously dude, …… did you read that before posting it? That’s pretty arrogant stuff, and quite frankly surprising coming from you. You just personified what Mick said in the post just before yours:
Quote:
The arrogance of some musicians that believe one must be "mentally developed to be prepared, sophisticated, mature enough to appreciate the finer things in life, the depth & breadth, the nuances, blah...blah... blah..." drives me up a wall!
It's just another elitist..."the peons would never fully appreciate a fine cognac like this" type thinking.
I couldn't possibly have said it better myself.
So obviously I revealed my deficiencies, lack of education and inexperience by criticizing the clip, although in reference to the artist I said:
Quote:
He would have to be technically advanced to pull this off. And the fact that he transposed this from another instrument and memorized it is also impressive.
If vishnu had simply posted the clip and said something to the effect of “here’s a guitarist you guys might enjoy”, I wouldn’t have even commented on it. But when he used terms like “superhuman” and “you’ve been warned”, I had to comment on it.
I’m not going to criticize the folks who like it, but the things you just said about the folks who had a differing opinion are pretty arrogant. Once again, I’m surprised!
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.................
Last edited by bobcflatpicker; 07/01/11 04:22 AM.
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I have listened to this a couple of times. I really like it and this cat’s chops are amazing. However I know bebop is not for everyone so I can understand some of the comments here. I also like Jeff Golub, Joe Pass and George Benson but I would give almost anything to sound like Johnny Smith! Another interesting fact is I think Trane’s “My Favorite Things” is one of the best versions I have ever heard. I’ve played it a number of times; so many in fact that I will have to replace my vinyl version with a CD! Hey Jazzmandan we have a lot in common. My wife is a big country fan while I like jazz, blues and new age the most. We have one major rule: Who ever is driving the car gets control of the radio. Thus I have heard a lot of country, sometimes even sober! I find it interesting that no one has commented about this guitarist’s pure guitar tone. No distortion or overdrive, I.E. the two most over used effects in today’s music IMHO. The only thing this tread has proven is that this genre of music is not for everyone, so just listen and appreciate it for what it is. I tell my want-a-be-shredders students listen to some bluegrass. These guys rip on acoustic instruments, i.e. no super loud over distorted amps, and this from someone who appreciates but is not a big fan of bluegrass. Now don’t dump on me as I also appreciate but not a big fan of opera, Rap, hip-hop, bass n drums, acid jazz and a few more that I can’t think of right now. But I will listen to and comment about any and all genres of music. One last thing: all I can say to anyone who does not like Cannonball is "Mercy Mercy Mercy"!
OK, a random thought;
Why does toilet paper need a commercial? Who's not buying it?
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Mario, Quote:
I would give almost anything to sound like Johnny Smith!
I hate to say it, but I’d never heard of Johnny Smith until 20 years ago when I bought a 1975 Gibson Johnny Smith guitar from a co-worker. I then picked up an album and loved what I heard.
Quote:
I tell my want-a-be-shredders students listen to some bluegrass. These guys rip on acoustic instruments, i.e. no super loud over distorted amps, and this from someone who appreciates but is not a big fan of bluegrass. Now don’t dump on me as I also appreciate but not a big fan of opera, Rap, hip-hop, bass n drums, acid jazz and a few more that I can’t think of right now. But I will listen to and comment about any and all genres of music.
Although I’m a HUGE fan of bluegrass, I listen to almost every conceivable style out there. But the one’s you mentioned that you’re not a big fan of, …… I’d have to add a +1.
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I believe that each individual musician has some level of what they term "good" & "bad" music. I would call this their "standard"... the point at which something is judged by them.
Each music institution also has it's standard, and they teach it. The tradition is carried on & defended by their graduates.
Then there is the lay person/listener. They also have their standard of what is good & bad.
Every one of these standards vary, even if only slightly.
There is, in fact, no "standard" standard....Although institutionally trained musicians will tell us there is, and give a myriad of reasons, they are only perpetuating what they have been trained to do & what gives them legitimacy in their mind. Many musicians are encouraged to "play out of the box" as long as they do so from the box they are told to be in. The majority only rules because it says it does.
I contend that where music is concerned there is no "good" or "bad". There is only "different". Good & bad is only relevant when ego is involved. (it might be only the ego of protecting your standard)
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Have at 'er boys, this is entertaining!
John Conley
Musica est vita
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"Is this guy related to you? Is it you? Are you BFF's?"
i don't care much for your abbreviations.... Bub
#321412 - 06/30/11 03:14 PM
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
.................
--------------------
Bob
Edited by bobcflatpicker (07/01/11 04:22 AM)
#321449 - 06/30/11 07:04 PM
Reply
Quote
Quick Reply
...
--------------------
Bob
PS this just ain't your thread now is it?
Last edited by vishnu; 07/01/11 10:39 AM.
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Whoa - way too many people reading way too much into most likely innocent comments entered online! Regarding the 'elitist' references to others: Try not to think of it that way but more along the lines of "hey, if you didn't grow up eating lutefisk, you probably aren't going to like the taste of it". Perhaps I should include a Wikipedia link here for those that don't know what lutefisk is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LutefiskI absolutely did not grow up listening to bebop or anything even remotely close to it. My dad liked stuff like Burl Ives, Sons of the Pioneers, Roger Miller, etc. Of the 20 or so albums that we had, those are the names I remember. I remember the vinyl that they bought from either the tire store or a gas station that was like a who's who of MOR pop-music; Andy, and Steve and Edie, Liza, etc. Had my dad been spinning bebop discs, I most likely would hear the melody that others hear, but simply escapes me. It's absolutely ridiculous to claim that because you don't like the sound of something, that there's not talent in playing it, or education in learning how to play it. I don't like microtonal music from India, but the folks that play it with flair are no doubt talented, educated and likely enjoy the nuance that seems like noise to those that don't. I don't like the speed/metalcore growling that my 16 year old listens to - but I tell you what, the musicians in many of those bands have the fugue mental process and talent in spades. The precision in timing that some of the drummers and guitarists have, with their 8 string electric guitars, and the double-kick drums is astounding - and it's not just studio magic. I believe they play to a click track of some kind - but even with that, it's still incredibly precise human interaction with the click if that is the case. Talent of it's own kind. Education of it's own kind. Transcription is on the path of nearly any musical education. Performing the act of transcription involves many skills that assist one's musical development whether it's transcribing the Cannonball Adderly solo done in the OP's clip, or a Bach organ fugue, or a Doc Watson lick on the banjo, etc. Teaching the brain the connection between critical listening, playing and writing and reading has to knit some neurons together that weren't knit before. Now, back to eating lutefisk...... (Edited to add Wikipedia link to lutefisk)
Last edited by rockstar_not; 07/01/11 12:53 PM.
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Quote:
Regarding the 'elitist' references to others: Try not to think of it that way but more along the lines of "hey, if you didn't grow up eating lutefisk, you probably aren't going to like the taste of it".
I understand & agree. As long as you don't tell me there's something wrong with my tastebuds.
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