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Dan, who paid for the camp? That's key. My 2 friends who teach junior high (once science and one music) routinely buy everyday room supplies out of pocket because the school board rejects every requisition saying "There's no budget for that". Music and band camp is great, but the parents pay money for it. The 2 concerts per year that band and chorale put on at what, $5 a ticket, is nowhere near the revenue producer that football and basketball (or bassaball as they say it in my neighborhood) is. In this conformist cookie-cutter "make money at all costs" world, the esoteric values have long since been forfeited for that 11-0 football team. That 11-0 football team gets news coverage and attention from the TV media. The band's spring concert does not.
Very sad, but very true. And it stinks, but the downward spiral of this economy, which WILL get much worse and never get better until we become a 3rd world nation, dictates the scope in which we must all think. More Walmarts, more people working in them for minimum wage under deplorable shift scheduling and such.... all while the rich get richer taking advantage of us.
I am REALLY happy that I am close to the finish line. I will be gone before this all explodes. And it will.
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Quote:
Dan, who paid for the camp? That's key.
I'll have to go ask my wife? 
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Journeyman
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Quote:
Teachers buying everyday room supplies out of pocket because the school board rejects every requisition saying "There's no budget for that"
Good point that appies to many subjects. When my wife was Teaching High School English, she also taught Drama. Clearly not a big deal now 20 years later.
We had to lay out quite a bit of money, buying supplies. For class and for the plays they put on. Even if they had a production which the school charged admission for, the money never came back to the class. Not a penny.
Money for Supplies were, makeup, props costumes, paint for the sets and even scripts. And this was back in the early 1990s.
She belonged to the local theatre companty and it used the school and they never had to pay the school. The school didn't even get a cut of the door. Yet when the town's Theatre Company came to rehearse, which was days and nights, they bumped school classes that used the Auditorium. It was very unfair.
It's all gone today. They haven't had a play in many years. It's very sad.
Wayne,
Last edited by redguitars; 08/06/11 08:53 AM.
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Quote:
Quote:
Dan, who paid for the camp? That's key.
I'll have to go ask my wife?
Whichever of you paid, I KNOW there was a fee for the kids to attend. Sadly there is nothing free any more. And they defend it with the logic that the school is there for readin', writin' and 'rithmatic and anything extracurricular the parents have to pay for.
Now I know about inflation and all, but the high school I went to (1969 grad) charged tuition (private, catholic, all buys school) and my worst year of the 4 was $220. And my family had a hard time finding it. The school then had 2000 boys in 4 grades.
NOW... the school has merged with the girls school down the road because the schools are consolidating as families have less kids, thus enrollment goes down. The enrollment is around 600 in 4 grades. That drives the price up. And the tuition..... $5000. I did not put in too many zeros. $5000. For HIGH SCHOOL!!!
But parents pay it to keep their kids out of those AWFUL City of Cleveland schools, where rather than fix the broken windows, broken by punks throwing rocks, they close off the rooms and sit the kids with 3 kids in 2 desks. Can't fix the windows. Not in the budget!! The rooms are cleaned every OTHER day. Lunch is no longer hot foods. All cold, packaged stuff. Teachers show up, do the least required, and go home. No cares about truancy. If they don't show, I still get my paycheck.
It makes me both sad and angry the way kids are pushed through schools with those ridiculous "NO child left behind" programs. They are given C and D grades to get them through, and half come out of after 12 years of school unable to read or make change for a buck.
But there is no quick turnaround. You can't suddenly make teachers care about kids who refuse to take the earbuds out of their ears during class.
People need to take off the rose colored glasses and REALLY look at this country. We are 1 generation away from being on economic par with a 3rd world country. Crime is out of control. People have no jobs, yet somehow find money to buy crack. Where does that come from? From robbing the people who DO have jobs? Where are the police? At 75% staff after budget induced layoffs....
Sad. But I'm almost done.
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In the 25 years we've lived in the town, in Upstate, NY, the school has tripled in size. They concentrated on Science and Sports. They had a Science teacher that won more awards and brought in more grant money than the tax money that the town brought in.
The sports teams won many championships.
But they lost their way and the Science was gone. After this teacher who received an award presented to him by the President, had his budget cut in half. He retired and now teaches in a college and makes 10 times what he did here.
The big sports department pushed through a large budget awhile back so they could build an Olympic size swimming pool for competing.
Well it seems someone was taking back handers, because after all was said and done, they got the pool built, and it's huge. But, they can't compete because whoever they hired to build it, built it with the wrong dimensions. So it isn't regulation size.
They had to buy out the Superintendent’s contract to get him to leave.
Why hasn't anyone gone to jail? No one has even been fired. While the rest of the country is laying teachers off like crazy, our teachers are getting raises.
What a country.
Sorry for the rant, but I had to get it out. When we came here, we thought had come to heaven.
Wayne, I’m done,
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I have no idea how to fix things when they get as bad as Eddie is describing. Schools in my area are not like that.
Michigan has a millage plan. Taxes are based on a 'State Equalized Value' of your home (roughly half the estimated sale price) times a set number from the state. Then each school disctrict or city can vote for additional millage (that's right we vote to raise taxes for local projects and school programs). In the Port Huron and Marysville area it is not uncommon for us to vote to improve the school, build a new school, and yes, even a new sports field. We take the initiative. Port Huron added new auditoriums/theaters to the two high schools within the last few years. Nice ones; 32 channel mixers (with nice full racks) in a sound booth high above and behind the seating, nice speakers (Tannoy) spread around the room, mics built into the (large) stage ..
Marysville students started this last school year in a brand new high school. I haven't seen how nice the auditorium is there yet, but it's brand new.
I know not everywhere is this fortunate.
Maybe every state should work that way so people can have the level of schools for their kids that they want. And not be stuck paying for the poor types of schooling being described by some here.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Here we have a levy on every ballot, and they fail every time. Foreclosure on homes in my city is off the charts (2 just on my street!! Personally I will never vote to increase my real estate taxes for those schools until I see better performance, less truancy, and general improvement. They rebuilt a bunch of grade schools over the last 5 years. One of them that was torn down was 11 years old. My city does things because they can, not because they need to. Meanwhile truancy is over 10% here. Why? Because half of the city is assisted housing, inhabited by parents who grew up in poverty and know nothing better, and when they DO get $25 in their pocket they spend it in crack instead of buying their kids clothes to go to school. These parents live on the thought that THEY are doing okay without knowing how to read. "The gub'ment is giving me a house and food for free. Why should I care?" And the city just stays away from those neighborhoods, pretends they don't exist, and has socials and luncheons for the school board for doing such a great job.
My area stinks. Again, I am glad to be near the end of the ride.
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I was of Band Camp (well, in my case it was really Orchestra Camp...) back in the late fifties thru early sixties - and it was not free then either. My parents paid. But there were also a few scholarships made available presumably through the donations of private citizens or foundations, in which a deserving young virtuoso could take advantage.
--Mac
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Same here, and it helped amd it was appreciated!
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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I'm gonna take the other side of this argument for the sake of discussion.
The benefits attributed to a good musical education can also be derived from other things:
Martial arts build strength, discipline and coordination...
Religion builds character, compassion, awareness of fellow man...
Scouting builds a sense of self reliance, discipline and a skill set that branches in a hundred directions...
the list could go on, but the point is that many desirable things are learned OUTSIDE school. As Mac said, it is first and foremost the role of family to notice, develop and support the talents of the kids. To blame lack of opportunity on society is a cop-out
Furthermore, One argument that is made when kids complain about the necessity of various classes is that the school experience is meant more as an EXPOSURE to the topic, and more comprehensive understanding can be pursued later. Culturally, we are already OVER-exposed to music. There's little chance that any kid will grow to adulthood and lament that he was under-stimulated musically.
But I OFTEN hear young adults lamenting that they never got prepared for real life by their school curriculum, and that they entered adulthood without a practical knowledge of real career options.
Instead, almost every young kid I meet believes he is destined to be a world-reknowned musician. Read the Craig's list musician ads... they really think they are on the way to stardom.
Many of these kids will eventually get a job in fast food and won't know enough about math to make change if the computer goes down. Don't ask how I know this.
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The kid who can't make change was not a music student. He may have been 'musically stimulated' as you put it, but if he took music classes he can count (and subdivide) while playing an instrument at the same time. The only example I see comparable (to me) above may be scouting, as it does involve a wide range of discipline, but I do not know of any peer reviewed studies showing it increases ones learning. With music there are many. Quick refernce, but you can Google many - http://www.ptcmusic.org/The_Stage_Academy_of_Music/The_Benefits_of_Music.html
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Good points, Pat, but the thing we need to focus on is this. I know about sports building the sense of teamwork. I played football and baseball. One short season of hockey until that unfortunate incident with the stick... But I digress.
The issue is the opportunity to BE exposed to these extra curricular activities. Had there been no baseball for me, I would not have finished high school. There would have been no reason for me to go there every day because I did not care when the Battle of Hastings was fought (1066) or how much a gallon of water weighs (8.34 pounds). Baseball was my ticket. Until a knee injury. (Catchers can't catch if they can't crouch.) Some kids think their way out is tenor sax.
The point is that the expertise and experience comes outside of school when you apply the P word. I practiced my music as much as my baseball. The discipline to do so comes from inside. Martial arts, another good example. Studied 9 years. Rarely went to classes so it took me 5 years to reach black as I was starting over too often.
Daniel Tosh did a bit about giving the commencement address and how he refused to give the generic speech. "As I look out, I see doctors and lawyers". He gave the real speech. "There are felons here. Some of you will die in a DUI accident TONIGHT." Now of course he played for comedy, but how much truth was there in that comedy?
It's more a matter of the kids having choices than what they do with those choices. Baseball kept me out of jail. Music made me a living. While I have been unemployed, music has literally kept me sane. Between my dog, who could not go on without me as I am her whole life, and music, it is not an exaggeration to say that they possibly kept me alive. I don't know what I might have done without that dog giving me a reason to get up in the morning. Music, art, choral, drama group... the kids need something they are interested in, and with budget cuts taking that away, how many will go to school until the state says they can quit (16 in Ohio) and then become a bum? Probably more than we care to say.
We need arts in the schools.
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Quote:
The kid who can't make change was not a music student. He may have been 'musically stimulated' as you put it, but if he took music classes he can count (and subdivide) while playing an instrument at the same time.
The only example I see comparable (to me) above may be scouting, as it does involve a wide range of discipline, but I do not know of any peer reviewed studies showing it increases ones learning. With music there are many.
Quick refernce, but you Google many -
http://www.ptcmusic.org/The_Stage_Academy_of_Music/The_Benefits_of_Music.html
you are arguing the power of the pursuit...
I'm arguing whether anything is really lost when the pursuit
is no longer mandated by an organization.
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The point is that the expertise and experience comes outside of school when you apply the P word. I practiced my music as much as my baseball. The discipline to do so comes from inside.
Both of my kids were exposed to things in school but never grew passionate about them. My wife and I tried to direct them in various extracurricular pursuits, and as soon as we stopped pushing, they stopped going.
Yet somehow as young adults they have both identified and pursued things that interest them as much as (or maybe more than) music interests me. Most of them are things I would never have thought to suggest or promote... but they intuitively knew what they want.
My point is that passion has to be identified by the individual, not by the parents or the school system.
Classic literature is full of stories about parents who tried to perpetuate their own dreams through their kids; and in most of those stories, the kid is not happy about it.
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I never said every kid should have to take music classes (mandated). Yer moving the goalposts on me .. I feel that, due to the demonstrable benefits it should be available if possible.
Truth is, there are serious cuts coming to everything in the near future. Hard choices will be made on where cuts are placed. If you have something that improves the learning ability and general well-being of students, there should be serious thought before cutting.
Comparing music class to school sports isn't a fair comparison either. Band members must rent or purchase their students' instruments. How many schools require the football team to purchase their own equipment? The basketball team parents supply the balls? Answer is 'None' as far as my experiences go (yeah I played some sports). Normally IF a school has a marching band those uniforms were purchased by parents doing a 'Band Booster' event or such and raising money. Much more of the actual public's money goes toward sports than music. I doubt the real return is close to being the same, except for the "I used to be able to throw a football a quarter mile" aspect. <grin>
Also, for every Craigslist soon-to-be-music-star, there are more than a couple soon to be pro ball players out there. Quite a few of them carry that facade into college and waste their secondary education too. Not quite as many college music students riding their way thru without learning. Again, just another side of the coin.
Fun discussion.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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rharv,
Both school systems that my kids have been in have pay-to-play policies in effect for sports AND band and any other extracurricular activity - which cover a good deal of the equipment on the sports side, but not on the band side. Fortunately, my senior is a tuba player and the school needs them so bad that the school provides the instrument during the year.
Football, different story. Same fee - but basically all he got was a 'crummy t-shirt'.
I come from a long line of public school teachers - I was the first to break the chain, becoming an engineer instead. When my dad was threatened with a lawsuit for grabbing a kid - after the kid yanked a handful of my dad's hair of my dad's head - I knew that teaching wasn't for me. I teach adults quite often, but sorry on the public school teacher front - not going there. Not enough pay for so much grief.
Unfortunately, I think my opinion is rather consistent with those that have made the same decision. I say 'unfortunately' because the quality of education is only as good as the quality of folks that choose to enter the field; big list of inspiring teacher movies notwithstanding.
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Quote:
the quality of education is only as good as the quality of folks that choose to enter the field; big list of inspiring teacher movies notwithstanding.
Can't argue with that, and I understand your choice. I once considered teaching. Chose otherwise. I have a brother that does it though. Teaches music at one of them there universadees.
Last edited by rharv; 08/06/11 03:42 PM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Listen to Billy Taylor or Ella Fitzgerald....great real-world education for whomever!
Great Education in Music was derived in the Army...and, I got paid for my efforts in the 7th Army Band/Europe, along with Elvis and Eddie Harris, etc., etc.
Yamaha...Motif ES-8, Motif Rack, CS6X
Korg...Karma,Triton Classic, PA-80, M-1+
AkaiSampler-S5000, Roland.. X5080 Rack/G-1000 Arranger
Various Guitars/Basses Amps Pedals Rec.Equip.
Plus, BIAB 2015 and Sonar Platinum 2015 Upgrade from Cakewalk's Sonar X-3
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I went to high school in the 60s and for band, kids had to buy their own mouthpiece for sanitary reasons but the school provided trumpets and saxes. The world wasn't so PC then and so concerned that even with his own mouthpiece little Johnny might get AIDS from a germ walking backwards up the body of the horn after the previous student played it.
I miss the 60s. Before Yuppies, before these over protective, permissive parents, before Wii and Play Station.... before parents who protest and picket schools over free lunch programs and then drop McDonald's food off for them every day in their Hummer. When I was married to the last one we lived in a VERY Yuppie area and every night I had to come home and wash the wimp off me. Little Cameron and Schuyler with their juice boxes... I get sick thinking about this generation of worthless little wimps we are raising. Signing a document when your kid goes into little league that you will only call out positive, encouraging things... I prefer Bobby Knight to coach my kid. He will leave the school tough, not a doughy little wuss.
I grew up on the streets of inner city Cleveland, and I wouldn't trade it for all the Orange County in the world! We played tackle football with no equipment. Fast pitch baseball, not softball and soft toss with coaches pitching.... we didn't wear armor to ride a frickin' bicycle. Now.... oh man, I am off and running again.
I have to ask this question so I have a sense of perspective about the other major contributors to this discussion. How many of you were at all privileged growing up and how many went to the School of Hard Knocks where you were taught by Professor Street Smart? We had NOTHING. When I went into little league, an uncle who had more than we did ended up buying me a glove and shoes, not my father. In 1964, the Browns (and the city of Cleveland's) only championship, I went to the game as a Christmas gift from that same uncle. My father, bless his soul and rest in peace, did all he could and he did well by us as far as his means could take him, but that little bit of money that they spent on my weekly music lessons came from a sponsor, not him. And to those who I have inadvertently crossed here with my hard edged attitude, that's where it came from. I fought three times a week on my way home from grade school because someone would try to steal my baseball glove. Google Hough Riots and read the Wiki article. That's where I lived. Being a white kid living near that area was rough.
Anyway, back to topic, yes, schools are pricing themselves out of the game. I hate to think that somewhere in inner city Chicago, or Detroit, or DC the next Charlie Parker will never get the chance to play because his alcoholic, drug addicted mother and incarcerated father can't rent him a horn. Schools are that badly funded, and big corporations don't pay taxes. What's wrong with this picture?
It is indeed a different time. And as I have said often, I am glad I am close to the final curtain.
Thank you for listening.
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
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Video: New User Interface (GUI)
Join Tobin as he takes you on a tour of the new user interface in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®! This modern GUI redesign offers a sleek new look with updated toolbars, refreshed windows, and a smoother workflow. The brand-new side toolbar puts track selection, the MultiPicker Library, and other essential tools right at your fingertips. Plus, our upgraded Multi-View lets you layer multiple windows without overlap, giving you a highly flexible workspace. Many windows—including Tracks, Piano Roll, and more—have been redesigned for improved usability and a cleaner, more intuitive interface, and more!
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Introducing XPro Styles PAK 10 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 10 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 28 RealTracks and RealDrums!
Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
Here’s just a small sampling of what you can look forward to in XPro Styles PAK 10: Soft indie folk worship songs, bumpin’ country boogies, gospel praise breaks, hard rockin’ pop, funky disco grooves, smooth Latin jazz pop, bossa nova fusion, western swing, alternative hip-hop, cool country funk, and much more!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 10 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 10 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Introducing Xtra Styles PAK 21 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest Xtra Styles PAK installment—the all new Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher)!
Rejoice, one and all, for Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box® is here! We’re serving up 200 brand spankin’ new styles to delight your musical taste buds! The first three courses are the classics you’ve come to know and love, including offerings from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, but, not to be outdone, this year’s fourth course is bro country! A wide ranging genre, you can find everything from hip-hop, uptempo outlaw country, hard hitting rock, funk, and even electronica, all with that familiar bro country flair. The dinner bell has been rung, pickup up Xtra Styles PAK 21 today!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Energetic folk rock, raucous train beats, fast country boogies, acid jazz grooves, laid-back funky jams, a bevy of breezy jazz waltzes, calm electro funk, indie synth pop, industrial synth metal, and more bro country than could possibly fit in the back of a pickup truck!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 21 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 21 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 21.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 21 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 21 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
Band-in-a-Box 2026 for Windows is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows is here and it is packed with major new features! There’s a new modern look, a GUI redesign to all areas of the program including toolbars, windows, workflow and more. There’s a Multi-view layout for organizing multiple windows. A standout addition is the powerful AI-Notes feature, which uses AI neural-net technology to transcribe polyphonic audio into MIDI—entire mixes or individual instruments—making it easy to study, view, and play parts from any song. And that’s just the beginning—there are over 60 new features in this exciting release.
Along with version 2026, we've released an incredible lineup of new content! There's 202 new RealTracks, brand-new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two new RealDrums Stems sets, XPro Styles PAK 10, Xtra Styles PAK 21, and much more!
Special Offers
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows and save up to 50% on most upgrade packages during our special offer—available until December 31, 2025. Visit our Band-in-a-Box® packages page to explore all available upgrade options.
2026 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK Add-ons
Our Free Bonus PAK and 49-PAK are loaded with amazing add-ons! The Free Bonus PAK is included with most Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows packages, but you can unlock even more—including 20 unreleased RealTracks—by upgrading to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49. Browse the full contents of each package and listen to demos here.
XPro and Xtra Styles PAKs Special Extended Until August 31st!
XPro & Xtra Styles PAKs Special Extended Until August 31st!
The XPro Styles PAKs and Xtra Styles PAKs special offers are now available until August 31st at 11:59pm PDT!
Ready to take your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 experience to the next level? Now’s the perfect time! Expand your style library with XPro and Xtra Styles PAKs—packed with a wide variety of genres to inspire your next musical creation.
What are XPro Styles and Xtra Styles PAKs?
XPro Styles PAKs are styles that work with any version (Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition) of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). XPro Styles PAKS 1-9 includes 900 styles!
Xtra Styles PAKs are styles that work with the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). With over 3,500 styles (and 35 MIDI styles) included in Xtra Styles PAKs 1-20, the possibilities are endless!
Get the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Listen to demos and order now! For Windows or for Mac.
Note: XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Get Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 19 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Listen to demos and order now! For Windows or for Mac.
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 19 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
Don’t miss this chance to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box setup—at a great price!
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