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Dan, who paid for the camp? That's key. My 2 friends who teach junior high (once science and one music) routinely buy everyday room supplies out of pocket because the school board rejects every requisition saying "There's no budget for that". Music and band camp is great, but the parents pay money for it. The 2 concerts per year that band and chorale put on at what, $5 a ticket, is nowhere near the revenue producer that football and basketball (or bassaball as they say it in my neighborhood) is. In this conformist cookie-cutter "make money at all costs" world, the esoteric values have long since been forfeited for that 11-0 football team. That 11-0 football team gets news coverage and attention from the TV media. The band's spring concert does not.
Very sad, but very true. And it stinks, but the downward spiral of this economy, which WILL get much worse and never get better until we become a 3rd world nation, dictates the scope in which we must all think. More Walmarts, more people working in them for minimum wage under deplorable shift scheduling and such.... all while the rich get richer taking advantage of us.
I am REALLY happy that I am close to the finish line. I will be gone before this all explodes. And it will.
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Quote:
Dan, who paid for the camp? That's key.
I'll have to go ask my wife? 
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Quote:
Teachers buying everyday room supplies out of pocket because the school board rejects every requisition saying "There's no budget for that"
Good point that appies to many subjects. When my wife was Teaching High School English, she also taught Drama. Clearly not a big deal now 20 years later.
We had to lay out quite a bit of money, buying supplies. For class and for the plays they put on. Even if they had a production which the school charged admission for, the money never came back to the class. Not a penny.
Money for Supplies were, makeup, props costumes, paint for the sets and even scripts. And this was back in the early 1990s.
She belonged to the local theatre companty and it used the school and they never had to pay the school. The school didn't even get a cut of the door. Yet when the town's Theatre Company came to rehearse, which was days and nights, they bumped school classes that used the Auditorium. It was very unfair.
It's all gone today. They haven't had a play in many years. It's very sad.
Wayne,
Last edited by redguitars; 08/06/11 09:53 AM.
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Quote:
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Dan, who paid for the camp? That's key.
I'll have to go ask my wife?
Whichever of you paid, I KNOW there was a fee for the kids to attend. Sadly there is nothing free any more. And they defend it with the logic that the school is there for readin', writin' and 'rithmatic and anything extracurricular the parents have to pay for.
Now I know about inflation and all, but the high school I went to (1969 grad) charged tuition (private, catholic, all buys school) and my worst year of the 4 was $220. And my family had a hard time finding it. The school then had 2000 boys in 4 grades.
NOW... the school has merged with the girls school down the road because the schools are consolidating as families have less kids, thus enrollment goes down. The enrollment is around 600 in 4 grades. That drives the price up. And the tuition..... $5000. I did not put in too many zeros. $5000. For HIGH SCHOOL!!!
But parents pay it to keep their kids out of those AWFUL City of Cleveland schools, where rather than fix the broken windows, broken by punks throwing rocks, they close off the rooms and sit the kids with 3 kids in 2 desks. Can't fix the windows. Not in the budget!! The rooms are cleaned every OTHER day. Lunch is no longer hot foods. All cold, packaged stuff. Teachers show up, do the least required, and go home. No cares about truancy. If they don't show, I still get my paycheck.
It makes me both sad and angry the way kids are pushed through schools with those ridiculous "NO child left behind" programs. They are given C and D grades to get them through, and half come out of after 12 years of school unable to read or make change for a buck.
But there is no quick turnaround. You can't suddenly make teachers care about kids who refuse to take the earbuds out of their ears during class.
People need to take off the rose colored glasses and REALLY look at this country. We are 1 generation away from being on economic par with a 3rd world country. Crime is out of control. People have no jobs, yet somehow find money to buy crack. Where does that come from? From robbing the people who DO have jobs? Where are the police? At 75% staff after budget induced layoffs....
Sad. But I'm almost done.
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In the 25 years we've lived in the town, in Upstate, NY, the school has tripled in size. They concentrated on Science and Sports. They had a Science teacher that won more awards and brought in more grant money than the tax money that the town brought in.
The sports teams won many championships.
But they lost their way and the Science was gone. After this teacher who received an award presented to him by the President, had his budget cut in half. He retired and now teaches in a college and makes 10 times what he did here.
The big sports department pushed through a large budget awhile back so they could build an Olympic size swimming pool for competing.
Well it seems someone was taking back handers, because after all was said and done, they got the pool built, and it's huge. But, they can't compete because whoever they hired to build it, built it with the wrong dimensions. So it isn't regulation size.
They had to buy out the Superintendent’s contract to get him to leave.
Why hasn't anyone gone to jail? No one has even been fired. While the rest of the country is laying teachers off like crazy, our teachers are getting raises.
What a country.
Sorry for the rant, but I had to get it out. When we came here, we thought had come to heaven.
Wayne, I’m done,
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I have no idea how to fix things when they get as bad as Eddie is describing. Schools in my area are not like that.
Michigan has a millage plan. Taxes are based on a 'State Equalized Value' of your home (roughly half the estimated sale price) times a set number from the state. Then each school disctrict or city can vote for additional millage (that's right we vote to raise taxes for local projects and school programs). In the Port Huron and Marysville area it is not uncommon for us to vote to improve the school, build a new school, and yes, even a new sports field. We take the initiative. Port Huron added new auditoriums/theaters to the two high schools within the last few years. Nice ones; 32 channel mixers (with nice full racks) in a sound booth high above and behind the seating, nice speakers (Tannoy) spread around the room, mics built into the (large) stage ..
Marysville students started this last school year in a brand new high school. I haven't seen how nice the auditorium is there yet, but it's brand new.
I know not everywhere is this fortunate.
Maybe every state should work that way so people can have the level of schools for their kids that they want. And not be stuck paying for the poor types of schooling being described by some here.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Here we have a levy on every ballot, and they fail every time. Foreclosure on homes in my city is off the charts (2 just on my street!! Personally I will never vote to increase my real estate taxes for those schools until I see better performance, less truancy, and general improvement. They rebuilt a bunch of grade schools over the last 5 years. One of them that was torn down was 11 years old. My city does things because they can, not because they need to. Meanwhile truancy is over 10% here. Why? Because half of the city is assisted housing, inhabited by parents who grew up in poverty and know nothing better, and when they DO get $25 in their pocket they spend it in crack instead of buying their kids clothes to go to school. These parents live on the thought that THEY are doing okay without knowing how to read. "The gub'ment is giving me a house and food for free. Why should I care?" And the city just stays away from those neighborhoods, pretends they don't exist, and has socials and luncheons for the school board for doing such a great job.
My area stinks. Again, I am glad to be near the end of the ride.
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I was of Band Camp (well, in my case it was really Orchestra Camp...) back in the late fifties thru early sixties - and it was not free then either. My parents paid. But there were also a few scholarships made available presumably through the donations of private citizens or foundations, in which a deserving young virtuoso could take advantage.
--Mac
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Same here, and it helped amd it was appreciated!
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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I'm gonna take the other side of this argument for the sake of discussion.
The benefits attributed to a good musical education can also be derived from other things:
Martial arts build strength, discipline and coordination...
Religion builds character, compassion, awareness of fellow man...
Scouting builds a sense of self reliance, discipline and a skill set that branches in a hundred directions...
the list could go on, but the point is that many desirable things are learned OUTSIDE school. As Mac said, it is first and foremost the role of family to notice, develop and support the talents of the kids. To blame lack of opportunity on society is a cop-out
Furthermore, One argument that is made when kids complain about the necessity of various classes is that the school experience is meant more as an EXPOSURE to the topic, and more comprehensive understanding can be pursued later. Culturally, we are already OVER-exposed to music. There's little chance that any kid will grow to adulthood and lament that he was under-stimulated musically.
But I OFTEN hear young adults lamenting that they never got prepared for real life by their school curriculum, and that they entered adulthood without a practical knowledge of real career options.
Instead, almost every young kid I meet believes he is destined to be a world-reknowned musician. Read the Craig's list musician ads... they really think they are on the way to stardom.
Many of these kids will eventually get a job in fast food and won't know enough about math to make change if the computer goes down. Don't ask how I know this.
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The kid who can't make change was not a music student. He may have been 'musically stimulated' as you put it, but if he took music classes he can count (and subdivide) while playing an instrument at the same time. The only example I see comparable (to me) above may be scouting, as it does involve a wide range of discipline, but I do not know of any peer reviewed studies showing it increases ones learning. With music there are many. Quick refernce, but you can Google many - http://www.ptcmusic.org/The_Stage_Academy_of_Music/The_Benefits_of_Music.html
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Good points, Pat, but the thing we need to focus on is this. I know about sports building the sense of teamwork. I played football and baseball. One short season of hockey until that unfortunate incident with the stick... But I digress.
The issue is the opportunity to BE exposed to these extra curricular activities. Had there been no baseball for me, I would not have finished high school. There would have been no reason for me to go there every day because I did not care when the Battle of Hastings was fought (1066) or how much a gallon of water weighs (8.34 pounds). Baseball was my ticket. Until a knee injury. (Catchers can't catch if they can't crouch.) Some kids think their way out is tenor sax.
The point is that the expertise and experience comes outside of school when you apply the P word. I practiced my music as much as my baseball. The discipline to do so comes from inside. Martial arts, another good example. Studied 9 years. Rarely went to classes so it took me 5 years to reach black as I was starting over too often.
Daniel Tosh did a bit about giving the commencement address and how he refused to give the generic speech. "As I look out, I see doctors and lawyers". He gave the real speech. "There are felons here. Some of you will die in a DUI accident TONIGHT." Now of course he played for comedy, but how much truth was there in that comedy?
It's more a matter of the kids having choices than what they do with those choices. Baseball kept me out of jail. Music made me a living. While I have been unemployed, music has literally kept me sane. Between my dog, who could not go on without me as I am her whole life, and music, it is not an exaggeration to say that they possibly kept me alive. I don't know what I might have done without that dog giving me a reason to get up in the morning. Music, art, choral, drama group... the kids need something they are interested in, and with budget cuts taking that away, how many will go to school until the state says they can quit (16 in Ohio) and then become a bum? Probably more than we care to say.
We need arts in the schools.
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Quote:
The kid who can't make change was not a music student. He may have been 'musically stimulated' as you put it, but if he took music classes he can count (and subdivide) while playing an instrument at the same time.
The only example I see comparable (to me) above may be scouting, as it does involve a wide range of discipline, but I do not know of any peer reviewed studies showing it increases ones learning. With music there are many.
Quick refernce, but you Google many -
http://www.ptcmusic.org/The_Stage_Academy_of_Music/The_Benefits_of_Music.html
you are arguing the power of the pursuit...
I'm arguing whether anything is really lost when the pursuit
is no longer mandated by an organization.
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The point is that the expertise and experience comes outside of school when you apply the P word. I practiced my music as much as my baseball. The discipline to do so comes from inside.
Both of my kids were exposed to things in school but never grew passionate about them. My wife and I tried to direct them in various extracurricular pursuits, and as soon as we stopped pushing, they stopped going.
Yet somehow as young adults they have both identified and pursued things that interest them as much as (or maybe more than) music interests me. Most of them are things I would never have thought to suggest or promote... but they intuitively knew what they want.
My point is that passion has to be identified by the individual, not by the parents or the school system.
Classic literature is full of stories about parents who tried to perpetuate their own dreams through their kids; and in most of those stories, the kid is not happy about it.
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I never said every kid should have to take music classes (mandated). Yer moving the goalposts on me .. I feel that, due to the demonstrable benefits it should be available if possible.
Truth is, there are serious cuts coming to everything in the near future. Hard choices will be made on where cuts are placed. If you have something that improves the learning ability and general well-being of students, there should be serious thought before cutting.
Comparing music class to school sports isn't a fair comparison either. Band members must rent or purchase their students' instruments. How many schools require the football team to purchase their own equipment? The basketball team parents supply the balls? Answer is 'None' as far as my experiences go (yeah I played some sports). Normally IF a school has a marching band those uniforms were purchased by parents doing a 'Band Booster' event or such and raising money. Much more of the actual public's money goes toward sports than music. I doubt the real return is close to being the same, except for the "I used to be able to throw a football a quarter mile" aspect. <grin>
Also, for every Craigslist soon-to-be-music-star, there are more than a couple soon to be pro ball players out there. Quite a few of them carry that facade into college and waste their secondary education too. Not quite as many college music students riding their way thru without learning. Again, just another side of the coin.
Fun discussion.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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rharv,
Both school systems that my kids have been in have pay-to-play policies in effect for sports AND band and any other extracurricular activity - which cover a good deal of the equipment on the sports side, but not on the band side. Fortunately, my senior is a tuba player and the school needs them so bad that the school provides the instrument during the year.
Football, different story. Same fee - but basically all he got was a 'crummy t-shirt'.
I come from a long line of public school teachers - I was the first to break the chain, becoming an engineer instead. When my dad was threatened with a lawsuit for grabbing a kid - after the kid yanked a handful of my dad's hair of my dad's head - I knew that teaching wasn't for me. I teach adults quite often, but sorry on the public school teacher front - not going there. Not enough pay for so much grief.
Unfortunately, I think my opinion is rather consistent with those that have made the same decision. I say 'unfortunately' because the quality of education is only as good as the quality of folks that choose to enter the field; big list of inspiring teacher movies notwithstanding.
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Quote:
the quality of education is only as good as the quality of folks that choose to enter the field; big list of inspiring teacher movies notwithstanding.
Can't argue with that, and I understand your choice. I once considered teaching. Chose otherwise. I have a brother that does it though. Teaches music at one of them there universadees.
Last edited by rharv; 08/06/11 04:42 PM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Listen to Billy Taylor or Ella Fitzgerald....great real-world education for whomever!
Great Education in Music was derived in the Army...and, I got paid for my efforts in the 7th Army Band/Europe, along with Elvis and Eddie Harris, etc., etc.
Yamaha...Motif ES-8, Motif Rack, CS6X
Korg...Karma,Triton Classic, PA-80, M-1+
AkaiSampler-S5000, Roland.. X5080 Rack/G-1000 Arranger
Various Guitars/Basses Amps Pedals Rec.Equip.
Plus, BIAB 2015 and Sonar Platinum 2015 Upgrade from Cakewalk's Sonar X-3
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I went to high school in the 60s and for band, kids had to buy their own mouthpiece for sanitary reasons but the school provided trumpets and saxes. The world wasn't so PC then and so concerned that even with his own mouthpiece little Johnny might get AIDS from a germ walking backwards up the body of the horn after the previous student played it.
I miss the 60s. Before Yuppies, before these over protective, permissive parents, before Wii and Play Station.... before parents who protest and picket schools over free lunch programs and then drop McDonald's food off for them every day in their Hummer. When I was married to the last one we lived in a VERY Yuppie area and every night I had to come home and wash the wimp off me. Little Cameron and Schuyler with their juice boxes... I get sick thinking about this generation of worthless little wimps we are raising. Signing a document when your kid goes into little league that you will only call out positive, encouraging things... I prefer Bobby Knight to coach my kid. He will leave the school tough, not a doughy little wuss.
I grew up on the streets of inner city Cleveland, and I wouldn't trade it for all the Orange County in the world! We played tackle football with no equipment. Fast pitch baseball, not softball and soft toss with coaches pitching.... we didn't wear armor to ride a frickin' bicycle. Now.... oh man, I am off and running again.
I have to ask this question so I have a sense of perspective about the other major contributors to this discussion. How many of you were at all privileged growing up and how many went to the School of Hard Knocks where you were taught by Professor Street Smart? We had NOTHING. When I went into little league, an uncle who had more than we did ended up buying me a glove and shoes, not my father. In 1964, the Browns (and the city of Cleveland's) only championship, I went to the game as a Christmas gift from that same uncle. My father, bless his soul and rest in peace, did all he could and he did well by us as far as his means could take him, but that little bit of money that they spent on my weekly music lessons came from a sponsor, not him. And to those who I have inadvertently crossed here with my hard edged attitude, that's where it came from. I fought three times a week on my way home from grade school because someone would try to steal my baseball glove. Google Hough Riots and read the Wiki article. That's where I lived. Being a white kid living near that area was rough.
Anyway, back to topic, yes, schools are pricing themselves out of the game. I hate to think that somewhere in inner city Chicago, or Detroit, or DC the next Charlie Parker will never get the chance to play because his alcoholic, drug addicted mother and incarcerated father can't rent him a horn. Schools are that badly funded, and big corporations don't pay taxes. What's wrong with this picture?
It is indeed a different time. And as I have said often, I am glad I am close to the final curtain.
Thank you for listening.
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Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® today for as little as $49! Check out the Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all available purchase options.
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If you have any questions about which package is the best option for you, just let us know. We're here to help!
202 New RealTracks Released with Band-in-a-Box 2026!
With Band-in-a-Box® 2026, we've released 202 incredible new RealTracks (in sets 468-488) in a variety of genres—featuring your most requested styles!
Jazz, Funk & World (Sets 468-475):
Our new jazz, funk & blues RealTracks include a groovin’ collection of RealTracks and RealDrums! These include more requested “soul jazz” RealTracks featuring artists Neil Swainson (bass), Charles Treadway (organ), Brent Mason (guitar), and Wes Little (drums). There are new “smooth jazz” styles (4), which include a RealTracks first: muted trumpet, as well as slick new smooth jazz brushes options for drums. Blues lovers will be thrilled—there are more “classic acoustic blues” styles, including guitar (5), bass (4), and drums (10) with blues master Colin Linden, featuring understated and tasty background acoustic soloing, plus brushes drums and acoustic bass. There are also new electric blues RealTracks, including electric blues with PG favorite Johnny Hiland (3) and soulful electric slide guitar from Colin Linden (4). If you love funk & gospel, there are great new options this year, including gospel organ (3) from Charles Treadway, as well as new funk, tango, and rock ’n’ roll drums (3) and bass (1). And for big, bold arrangements, we have uptempo soul horns (4) featuring a three-part hip horn section with options for a full mix or stems of each individual horn — plus an accompanying rhythm section (4) of drums, bass, guitar, and electric piano!
Rock & Pop (Sets 476–482):
Our new rock & pop RealTracks bring a powerful mix of requested favorites, fresh genres, and modern chart-inspired styles! We have more of our popular “Producer Layered Acoustic Guitars (15)” featuring Band-in-a-Box favorite Brent Mason. We’ve continued our much-requested disco styles (10), and added new Celtic guitar (5) with a more basic, accessible approach than our previous Drop-D or DADGAD offerings. There are also highly requested yacht rock styles (17), inspired by the smooth, polished soft-rock sound of the late ’70s and early ’80s — laid-back grooves, silky electric pianos, warm textures, elegant harmonic movement, and pristine production aesthetics. Fans of heavier styles will love our new glam metal (13), capturing the flashy, high-energy sound of ’80s arena-ready guitar rock. We also have a set of rootsy modern-folk rock (18), with a warm, organic sound combining contemporary folk textures and driving acoustic strumming. And we’ve added lots of new modern pop styles (16) — the kinds of sounds you’re hearing on the radio today, featuring exciting new drums, synths, and cutting-edge RealTracks arrangements.
Country, & Americana (Sets 483–488):
Our new country & Americana RealTracks deliver a rich collection of acoustic, electric, and roots-inspired styles! We have new country pop (9) with legendary guitarist Brent Mason. There is also a potpourri (14) of bouzouki, guitars, banjo, and more, perfect for adding texture and character to contemporary acoustic arrangements. We’ve added funky country guitar (5) with PG favorite Brent Mason, along with classic pedal steel styles (5) featuring steel great Doug Jernigan. There are more country songwriter styles (8) that provide intimate, rootsy foundations for storytelling and modern Americana writing. Finally, we have “background soloing” acoustic guitar (12) with Brent Mason — simpler, but still very tasty acoustic lines designed to sit beautifully behind vocals or act as a subtle standalone solo part.
Check out all the 202 new RealTracks (in sets 468-488)!
And, if you are looking for more, the 2026 49-PAK (for $49) includes an impressive collection of 20 bonus RealTracks, featuring exciting and inspiring additions to add to your RealTracks library. You'll get new country-rhythm guitar styles from PG Music favorites Johnny Hiland and Brent Mason, along with modern-pop grooves that capture today’s radio-ready sound! There are also new indie-folk styles with guitar, bass, 6-string bass used as a high-chording instrument, acoustic guitar, and banjo. Plus, dedicated "cymbal fills" RealDrums provide an added layer that work very well with low-key folky styles with other percussion.
The 2026 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2026 49-PAK!
2026 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
With your version 2026 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
- MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
- Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
- Playable RealTracks Set 5
- RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
- SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
- iOS Android Band-in-a-Box® App
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
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