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So if I want to write orchestral parts where I have 'c' instruments, bflat instruments, and eflat instruments, is there a program that lets me put in the part and show in in the Key of X and have it play in the right way.
So think I'm writing the thing and the melody is in C and the Bflat horns need to be in either clef, showing the right note and playing along, albeit in a different track and key, in the same key so to speak.
So what do I buy if I'm writing a score and need the C instruments to play in C and the Bflat ones in D but sound in C...?
Maybe I've got this beggered up, but enlighten me.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Sibelius is indeed quite good for making arrangements.
There is a wizard in Sibelius that can take a fake chart and turn it into a full arrangement intelligently with one mouse click. There is a list of algotirhtms to pick from as well, to get an arrangement "in the style of..." - everything from bigband to orchestral.
And it does this amazingly fast after the button-click.
I still find that I like to manually edit things here and there, but that is for reasons of my own melodic sense more than anything else. You could indeed use the score Sibelius creates from the Arranger "as-is".
There is also a routine that will turn a full score into a fake chart or a Grand Staff piano chart, etc. condensing it. This works amazingly fast as well.
--Mac
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You might have a look at MuseScore, which is a free music notation program. It also supports toggling between notation and concert pitch (in the menu under Notes | Concert Pitch). I rather like the way Noteflight handles keying in music - it's a more mnemonic based system than most notation programs. It's web-based and has free accounts. You might also have a look at Notion, a commercial program that comes with a pretty good sound library, and does a pretty good job with playback.
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=326879&an=0&page=0#Post326879Mac and I were discussing this here the play back part is the hard part to get right - if wooden muzak is good enough for a demo then you can use Sibelius or finale and even some of the notation software attached to high end seqwuencers
Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k
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When you start a new score in Sibelius, you can choose from a list of manuscript setups eg: string orchestra, brass quintets, woodwind trios etc. (you can also choose a blank setup and add instruments later if you prefer). The manuscript appears with the correct clefs, key signatures etc.ready for you to input your notes. Everything plays back as it should. It's great. If inputting notes for transposing instruments is a hassle (it is for me at times) you can turn transposing score off then everything appears with the same key signature. Then you can put in the notes and when it's all done, turn transposing score back on and the score has the right key signatures and transpositions for the different instruments. Sibelius, BIAB and PowerTracks are my main go to programmes. They are all terrific. Worth every cent. 
yjoh
[i]Music...a joy for life.
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Quote:
http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=326879&an=0&page=0#Post326879
Mac and I were discussing this here the play back part is the hard part to get right - if wooden muzak is good enough for a demo then you can use Sibelius or finale and even some of the notation software attached to high end seqwuencers
When arranging for live human players, Sibelius is the hands down winner. You don't play back on the computer, you pass the charts out and raise the stick and drop it and get all the realism the players can manage.
Cubase does not have the auto-arranging feature, does it? Can Cubase almost instantly turn a fake chart into a Basey Band style arrangement for 17 pieces? Can Cubase automatically expand a piano chart into a near perfect String Quartet arrangement, or Brass Choir, or even to Full Orchestra? Can Cubase show all parts on the score in C but print all separated parts in the proper key for the instrument chosen automatically? There are plenty of other features that are geared more towards placing charts in front of live musicians as well.
I think that is John's goal here, NOT playback on the computer.
--Mac
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In most cases Mac.
But I'd like to arrange some of my stuff too, mostly for horns and organ.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Well, there's nothing preventing you from doing that in Sibelius as well.
You can enter notes, or you can use my favorite method, hook up a MIDI keyboard and Sibelius has a setting that will actually allow you to play in realtime and record to noatation - but with a great little twist, you don't have to play in rigid time, yet the program is intelligent enough to sort all that out anyway, automatically. Really cool, if I hesitate while playing in the line, waiting on inspiration, or decision, or whatever, the doggone thing somehow knows that and works around it, still printing a near perfect chart of what I wanted rather than what I played, rhythmically speaking.
There are lots of ways to use the program, just as with pgmusic products, it takes some time to learn a good program and find out what parts of it can be used in your intended workflow as well as diswcovering some new tricks that I hadn't thought about at all along the way, incorporating a bit of this and that to get to the end result.
--Mac
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Mac is right on all counts and you can't beat Sibelius for professional quality scores and arrangements. You can input manually or play in live and print out the separate parts for your live players to use.
Sibelius 7 is out now, I hear it runs on vista and windows 7 but not XP.
You could always download the free 30 day demo to see if it will do what you want it to do.
yjoh
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Cme to think of it, Sibelius has been the ONE program I have that has NEVER coughed, hiccupped or otherwise needed my attention in order to run properly.
It just flat does what it is supposed to do, every time.
Very robust.
--Mac
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Mac
you said: "When arranging for live human players, Sibelius is the hands down winner. "
I would not disagree.
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PG Music sells Finale (and PrintMusic) here on this site.
BIAB 2026 Win Audiophile. Software: Fender Studio One 8, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Fender Quantom HD8 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Quote:
Cme to think of it, Sibelius has been the ONE program I have that has NEVER coughed, hiccupped or otherwise needed my attention in order to run properly.
It just flat does what it is supposed to do, every time.
Very robust.
--Mac
Same here. No problems.
yjoh
[i]Music...a joy for life.
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Hi John. I have used Sibelius for years and have never upgraded. I'm still on ver. 4. I'm sure that Mac and others have the more feature rich newer versions. Sadly, I cannot afford to do those upgrades. Here's one example of what I do with mine. Let's say you have a tune where the melody changes amongst various instruments. For example maybe the first 16 bars are done on flute and then you want to switch the melody to trombone at bar 17. All you do is input the flute notes. Then add an instrument (trombone). Just copy the flute bars to where you want the trombone to play and paste. No worries about transposing since the program does it all. When done, just go to Print parts, select all, and all parts print out separately. Pretty slick, IMO. If I was going to do a lot of arranging for instruments in different keys, I would upgrade straight away. I like seeing the whole score at once, too. I'm a visual learner which is not always the best for music sometimes.  Stan
Cornet Curmudgeon
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I'm still on an older version too. I think its 4, would have to check, actually.
Haven't found a pressing need to spring for an update, the doggone thing does everything I need to do and a lot more that I don't use and likely don't even know how to operate.
--Mac
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I'm going for the Educational version as soon as I get my student card. I will also visit the campus bookstore next week and see if they have it in stock.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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You can download for free from the website, the full version, and use it for like 30 days while waiting for the purchase of the license in the package. Then you can just register and done. That's their version of allowing for a demo. Great idea. It will stop working after 30 days if you don't register, though.
Their registrarion method of course involves having computer that is online and hooked to the web. There is also a way to regsiter "manually" if not hooked to the web, I don't know anything much about that method, the web method is almost transarent in use. For example, my license allows me to run Sibelius on two computers and so Installed to one desktop and one latop and all sorted out well. The installation copy I received will install to either Mac or PC as well, don't know if that is still the case, but at one time I had one license on the PC and the second on a Mac - at the same time, with the same single purchase.
--Mac
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dcuny, mentions MuseScore here and for a free program I am extremely impressed and in my opinion is the best free notational program I have seen yet. Quote:
You might have a look at MuseScore, which is a free music notation program. It also supports toggling between notation and concert pitch (in the menu under Notes | Concert Pitch).
I rather like the way Noteflight handles keying in music - it's a more mnemonic based system than most notation programs. It's web-based and has free accounts.
You might also have a look at Notion, a commercial program that comes with a pretty good sound library, and does a pretty good job with playback.
In comparison, I have Sibelius 4 and also Finale 2006. I will not go down the road of which one is best as that is a still ongoing battle between the users of each. It is just a personal preference thing any way as both are extremely good.
However, my point is that MuseScore actually comes very close to them, and I would suggest the creators may even be mimicking some of the attributes of both Sibelius and Finale.
So before actually spending the quite large figure required to purchase Sibelius or Finale, try MuseScore, it will at least give you some idea for free, what you should be able to accomplish with either of the paid for programs.
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MuseScore is also Linux - if that hits your fancy.
It's sitting on a Ubuntustudio box I have here at work and tempting me to do some experimentation with it.
-Scott
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