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C’mon guys and gals! Let’s get back to the subject! It’s criminal what the “Feds” are doing to Gibson. Call your reps in the Congress and the Senate! Here’s the numbers for your state. http://www.usa.gov/Contact/Elected.shtmlI wasn’t kidding about having them on speed dial, regardless of party. (They almost recognize my voice). Tell them that what the “Feds” are doing to Gibson is unacceptable!
Last edited by bobcflatpicker; 09/01/11 10:39 AM.
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Anyone want a bushel of walnuts, I have them. The stupid squirrels won't eat them in that tree, they have to dine over my deck. If you ever stepped on a recently chewed in half peeled walnut that stuff is harder than steel. I can't cut a walnut, so my son went on the roof and picked and knocked off a bushel.
I guess I have to take a drive tomorrow. Hip permitting. Or call the other son with the cars. Hmmm...then I can take my grandson so we can pound on the piano and signing "she's wearing pink pajamas when she comes." I was going to substitute 'she's wearing trick gear when she comes', but my son's mother in law might get me.
That tree is about 15 inches around and straight until 16 feet. Not quite ready for the Husquavarna. I'll have it milled and stacked and flog the thing, stump branches et al...
John Conley
Musica est vita
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John,
You never did update us on the "wacky tobacky" pills. Are they helping?
Did you try the real thing? I hope you're doing better, ... whatever the reason. Take care.
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Journeyman
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Did Obama himself order this raid on Gibson?
Wayne,
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Nobody did. Nobody ordered that guns be sold to Mexican drug cartels, either. It is a mystery.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Quote:
Did Obama himself order this raid on Gibson?
Wayne,
Well, he got Bin Laden so maybe he got bored?
- Bud
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Helped quite a bit for about 3 weeks, they are going to up the size, Cheech and Chong are making them up. (LOL)
The doc asked me after a week and I told him the damn I gave after taking the pill was less than the one I gave before.
He told me I should make that a slogan.
I just got back from going for groceries. Forgot the cane. Stopped and got a double expresso and going out the door someone was coming in an texting so I had to stop, auto door hits me in the back, the coffee goes all down my shirt, I fall flat on my face. Had to come home to change.
On the plus side BP shingles have approved my warranty claim and I'm getting 4 out of 5k to re-shingle the house and 'garage'. So I'm singing My Way, at least for that because I think my letter scared them into the possible class action like the one against another company here. 25 year shingles that were good for 9. Right.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Holy cow. Quote:
Update: Gibson Guitar CEO Says Feds Told Him Problems Would ‘Go Away’ if Labor Done in Madagascar (Updated With Beck Interview)
The tale of the Gibson guitar raid — the one focused on the legendary guitar maker’s alleged importation and use of illegal wood — has taken an odd turn. Now CEO Henry Juszkiewicz is claiming the Feds told him that some of his problems “would go away” if the company used Madagascar labor.
In an interview with Beck radio affiliate KMJ 105.9 in Fresno, California, Juszkiewicz told host Chris Daniel that the government made the point “explicitly:”
CHRIS DANIEL: Mr. Juszkiewicz, did an agent of the US government suggest to you that your problems would go away if you used Madagascar labor instead of American labor?
HENRY JUSZKIEWICZ: They actually wrote that in a pleading.
CHRIS DANIEL: Excuse me?
HENRY JUSKIEWICZ: They actually wrote that in a pleading.
CHRIS DANIEL: That your problems would go away if you used Madagascar labor instead of our labor?
HENRY JUSKIEWICZ: Yes, yeah. They said that explicitly.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/update-g...-to-madagascar/
Be sure to listen to the interview at the bottom of the page. Glen Beck interviewed him today.
So the Feds are actually TRYING to eliminate US jobs. They even put it in writing.
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I plan to become a pile of ashes. I suppose they will be acidic.
A nice pristine lake with a view. Sparkles like diamonds, and many shades of green.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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I have to say Bob I'm trying to keep a neutral attitude about this because in my work I've been involved in several federal court cases and I know how complex they can be. The issues are not as simple as some of these articles would lead you to believe. It sucks but to say that "so and so is doing the same thing and he's not being prosecuted!" doesn't get you off the hook. They may or may not go after the other guy when they're finished with you.
Having said that I don't like what I'm reading at all. I read the WSJ article and others and it sure looks like regulations run amok. Maybe if there's enough publicity about this the feds will be forced to drop it as long as it really is just a ticky tack technicality and not blatent illegal importation of the wood. Sort of like what the TSA was forced to do after that poor woman was stipped searched because she had just been discharged from the hospital with some metal in her chest after a mastectomy operation. It took a few months but TSA changed their rules.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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A quote from this link: http://www.redstate.com/aglanon/2011/08/25/doj-raids-gibson-guitars-looking-for-illegal-wood/" In an affidavit, agent John Rayfield of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service said U.S. Customs agents in June detained a shipment of sawn ebony logs from India.
The paperwork accompanying the shipment identified it fraudulently as Indian ebony fingerboards for guitars and it did not say it was going to Gibson, the affidavit said." Ok, if this is the real affidavit then the issue is clear and should be pretty easy to prove or disprove. First, sawn logs are obviously simple unfinished logs (illegal) compared to finished fingerboards (legal). Second, does the paperwork say it's going to Gibson or not? If the import docs don't show Gibson yet Gibson is in possession of them that's bad. Those two points if true, means Gibson is busted simple as that. Unless this case is settled out of court those pictures of the logs and the paperwork will be published by the court and available for all to see. Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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While the feds are occupied with this important stuff, terrorists are planning the next 9/11.
- Bud
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Quote:
A quote from this link:
http://www.redstate.com/aglanon/2011/08/25/doj-raids-gibson-guitars-looking-for-illegal-wood/
"In an affidavit, agent John Rayfield of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service said U.S. Customs agents in June detained a shipment of sawn ebony logs from India.
The paperwork accompanying the shipment identified it fraudulently as Indian ebony fingerboards for guitars and it did not say it was going to Gibson, the affidavit said."
Ok, if this is the real affidavit then the issue is clear and should be pretty easy to prove or disprove. First, sawn logs are obviously simple unfinished logs (illegal) compared to finished fingerboards (legal). Second, does the paperwork say it's going to Gibson or not? If the import docs don't show Gibson yet Gibson is in possession of them that's bad. Those two points if true, means Gibson is busted simple as that. Unless this case is settled out of court those pictures of the logs and the paperwork will be published by the court and available for all to see.
Bob
Bob - is it the Lacey act that says that the sawn logs are illegal? The way that the blogosphere has been playing it is that the unfinished products are illegal not by US law, but by Indian law. I think this is what has all the underwear up in knots. There is the appearance that the Feds did this to uphold not our own law but the law of a different country. That's my non-lawyer understanding of the situation.
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Quote:
is it the Lacey act that says that the sawn logs are illegal?
The Lacey Act is the law in question. The wood itself is legal, The question is about whether the wood was “finished” prior to coming into the US. So, foreign labor is okay, … American labor isn’t. The wood remains the same, so the same trees get cut down either way.
See my previous post ” #330498 - Thu Sep 01 2011 10:16 AM” for more detail on this.
No wonder American job growth was 0, (zero), last month for the first time since 1945.
And now, after Chris Martin, CEO of Martin Guitar, made comments supporting the Feds, there's a new twist from numerous sources. Here’s one.
Quote:
Another interesting tidbit in the Gibson Guitar saga
.........................................................................
Commenters yesterday wondered whether Gibson Guitar CEO Henry Juszkiewicz is a Republican donor. Yep, he is. It also turns out that Chris Martin IV, the CEO of Gibson competitor, C.F. Martin and Company, is a long-time donor to Democrats. C.F. Martin uses the same “questionable” Indian rosewood in its guitars, but has the federal government raided a C.F. Martin factory? Didn’t think so. Juszkiewicz said yesterday he feels like this is a personal attack. Could it be because it is?
John Hinderaker over at Power Line words it perfectly:
Quote:
It has come out that Juszkiewicz is a Republican donor, while the CEO of one of his principal competitors, C.F. Martin & Company, is a Democratic donor. Martin reportedly uses the same wood, but DOJ hasn’t raided them, leading to speculation that the Obama administration is sending a warning to Republican businessmen that they had better not oppose his re-election, lest they face criminal investigations. Normally such speculation would not be credible, but Eric Holder has politicized the Department of Justice to a point where such questions must be taken seriously. …
If nothing else, this incident illustrates the misguided priorities of the Obama administration. Harassing American businesses on frivolous grounds is not exactly what our economy needs at the moment. But the anti-business Obama administration just can’t help itself.
It’s also worth noting that the U.S. is a “trivial” importer of rosewood from India and Madagascar. According to Hinderaker, 95 percent of it goes to China. So, the whole “it’s for the trees” argument doesn’t really hold up.
Hmmmmm, the plot thickens.
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Was wondering the other day when someone would point that out here, Bob.
Am wondering about quite a few things these days...
--Mac
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I found this website run by Jonathan Turly. He's a legal analyst for CNN and a law professor: http://jonathanturley.org/2011/09/01/gibson-guitar-raided-for-possible-lacey-act-violations-again/He provides a link to the actual affadavit signed by the federal investigator to establish probable cause to get the search warrant signed by a judge. He's quoting in detail from the Lacey Act in the affadavit. Turly's writing and the affidavit paints a different picture about Juszkiewicz. Here's the hard part guys. The affidavit is 32 pages of legalese. You need to read it and digest it before you can make some of these statements I see here. This affidvit doesn't mean the DOJ is right, Gibson could still prove the allegations wrong and win at trial but at least reading it provides a basis for discussion. All I see from Juszkiewicz is spin. He's not talking about the specific merits of the case. There's an old legal dictum that goes like this: "If you can't argue the facts, argue the law. If you can't argue the law, argue the facts. If you can't argue the law or the facts, blow smoke." He's blowing a lot of smoke therefore it's looking more and more to me like he's guilty. I don't believe for a second he doesn't know the Lacey Act inside and out. It's his business to know. If he has done nothing wrong according to that Act he would be quoting chapter and verse from it as well as the affidavit to show the DOJ is full of crap. I've seen this before, remember OJ? Instead he's whipping up public sentiment talking about how the administration wants to kill American jobs or how he's a victim of selective prosecution. Bringing up Martin Guitars is a classic example of throwing political smoke around. Can he prove that Martin is bringing in the exact same wood or is that allegation simply more smoke? It may be true or not true but it's irrelevant anyway. We were all taught as kids that we can't govern our actions based on what others do especially when it's something like this. A CEO of a big company has a responsibility to know what the laws are that impact his business and act accordingly. You may think with good reason that certain laws are completely and totally wrong, you hate them, you work your hard to get them changed and all that's fair but until that happens you better adhere to them or your butt's going to be in a sling. Years ago I went to traffic school to remove a ticket from my record. They brought in a CHP officer to talk. One guy with an attitude asked him why was he picked out for speeding on the freeway when everybody was doing 80? The cops answer with a smile was simply "because it was your turn". It's easy to make simplistic blanket statements about how stupid this is concerning Indian workers etc. Read Turly's take on the history behind the Lacey Act. It's not that simple. Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Quote:
Can he prove that Martin is bringing in the exact same wood or is that allegation simply more smoke?
He doesn't have to. This is America. He is innocent until THEY prove he is guilty. Not allege or surmise, PROVE. If there is any way to prove if Martin brought in wood from the same place, then this becomes selective enforcement and we can then turn attention to whether the large donation to Obama's campaign by Martin is factoring into this or not.
Somewhere online is a list of ridiculous laws that cities put in for one specific event and never took of the books. The Lacey Act or Law or whatever it is seems to belong on that list. Telling people where they can't acquire raw materials for their products seems over the line to me.
When they start telling companies to stop outsourcing their helpdesk and IT work to India and Costa Rica and every other third world they can find to work for a bag of rice, then they can hassle Gibson.
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Bob, Quote:
Here's the hard part guys. The affidavit is 32 pages of legalese. You need to read it and digest it before you can make some of these statements I see here.
I read the whole thing! Whew. I guess I’m now qualified to speak. The first thing I’ll say is that no one should feel compelled to read it, IMHO, since there is only a few pages that actually have anything of value to the discussion. Most of this can be found on pages 8-10 under “Investigation”.
The rest is legalese nonsense.
Quote:
All I see from Juszkiewicz is spin. He's not talking about the specific merits of the case. There's an old legal dictum that goes like this:
"If you can't argue the facts, argue the law. If you can't argue the law, argue the facts. If you can't argue the law or the facts, blow smoke."
Of course he’s giving “spin”. That’s his job to win public support. It’s working. Its his lawyers job to argue the law.
I’m surprised that you’re ready to declare Gibson “guilty”, especially based on info from the affidavit. After all, are the Feds going to say they don’t know for sure if Gibson should be charged, or are they going to say they have proof?
The whole thing is based on a technicality, and probably on political motivation from people using federal resources to further their agenda. It has NOTHING to do with saving trees, or even illegal wood species.
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There's so many ways to spin this guys. I'm just trying to be logical here and look at what info that is available to us. First the DOJ is barred by law from commenting on an ongoing investigation so we have no idea what they've actually found or haven't found at this point beyond what's in the affidavit.
Our system is an investigator has to show enough evidence ie "probable cause" to convince a federal judge to sign off on the warrant. That by itself is damning but certainly doesn't guarantee a conviction. I don't know the stats but tv shows and a few sensational cases notwithstanding, the DOJ has a very high success rate with these things which is what we as citizens want to see with our tax money. This could easily be the first of many prosecutions, give it time. Martin could well be next if there's evidence. Again, I'm not saying the Lacey Act is the greatest thing since sliced bread, I'm only saying Gibson should know all about it and the facts as laid out by the investigator doesn't look too good to me. You have to play by the rules as they are. And, it's easy to say witch hunt and all that but that affidavit is a federal court document. If that investigator lied in order to get a warrant, that by itself would land him in jail so you have to give that affidavit some weight and not just dismiss it out of hand until it's proven otherwise.
Eddie, if you were under investigation for something and you knew the whole thing was bogus, wouldn't you be arguing the facts not just blowing smoke? I sure would. This is like what I just heard about the NY Times going after Congressman Issa yesterday. Apparently they got their facts completely wrong and Issa has proven it by releasing some documents and the San Diego Tribune released a video showing the NY Times description of his offices overlooking a golf course when they actually overlook the freeway implying that he's some fat cat getting rich off his position as completely bogus too. That's what you do, go on offense and shoot that crap down right now not just dance around the issue like Gibson is doing.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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I'm going to get some popcorn and pull up a chair - this is going to be interesting. But I'm sure as health not going to take part.
Glenn
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