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The paperwork in question wasn't even filled out by Gibson, nor was it supposed to be. The Feds were even notified prior to the raid that the mistake was made by a junior clerk who worked for one of the importers. The Feds raided Gibson anyway.
Really? What's the source for that?
Think about this a second. The paperwork wasn't supposed to be filled out by Gibson? They're the recipient of the wood are they not? They can hire a Customs Broker and importers and all that but it's still their consignment and they're responsible for it. It's not like the importer brought it in under their name and then Gibson bought it from them once it was legally here. No, Gibson bought it directly from India and then made the arrangements to get it here. They can hire people to handle it but it's their shipment every step of the way and their lawyers know that.
You're using the old third party argument. Example, I'm a professional tax preparer. You hire me to do your taxes. If there's a big mistake on your tax return, who's responsible? You are because you signed it "under penalty of perjury that your return is true and correct". Look at the signature line of your last tax return. If it can be proven that I gave you legally bad advice I can be sanctioned by the IRS as well but it's still your tax return and you're responsible for it. Don't believe me? Ask Wesley Snipes, Willie Nelson and lots of others. Same thing here.
You guys certainly have a point about good lawyers not arguing a case in the news, wait for trial etc, but in a high profile case like this they will still put out stuff to try to undermine the governments case and I'm not seeing any of that so far. If that thing about a junior clerk is true, why hasn't J even mentioned it once? I haven't even heard him say something like there's lots of details I could go into but I'm advised not to. He hasn't even said that, he only talks about losing US jobs to India and how he's being singled out because he's a Republican supporter.
Again, I'm not arguing that this kind of prosecution is a good idea, all I'm saying is as an outside observer Gibson looks weak and guilty to me.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Quote:
Really? What's the source for that?
Whoa Bob, ………………………that almost sounds like you’re suggesting I made it up! I guess it’s a good thing I was able to find the article this morning.
Quote:
There was a discrepancy in the import of this latest shipment of wood. It was listed with an improper tariff code, which the importer, Luthiers Mercantile International of Windsor, Calif., claimed was a clerical error by a junior employee and tried to clear up. But rather than talk to the importer and Gibson about it, the Justice Department dispatched U.S. Fish and Wildlife and DHS agents to raid the Gibson compounds.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/07/does-white-house-want-to-ship-jobs-overseas/
You said early on that no one should even be commenting about this unless they’ve read the 31 page affidavit, and I read it so I’d meet your requirements to speak. Should we now start submitting “drafts” of our proposed comments to you for approval prior to posting?
Or is it okay for the rest of us to have opinions that are different from yours on this topic?
..................................................................
In Gibson’s case, there are other companies involved in each stage of the process, and each one fills out their own paperwork. It’s not Gibson’s fault if someone else screws up a form.
This could have been easily handled by the Feds if they’d wanted to, but they chose the heavy handed approach and are wasting millions of taxpayer dollars in what appears to be a vendetta against Gibson. They couldn’t prosecute Gibson after the first raid, so they jumped on what they thought was a “gotcha” moment and raided them again.
Shame on the Feds, ……not Gibson.
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Sorry about that Bob, no I wasn't implying you made it up. This is an example of what I just said, the media is not looking at the affadavit and putting these statements through that filter. There was a discrepency in the import... Damn right there was. The investigator says that "discrepency" was falsification of the Customs forms. All the reporter had to ask Luthier is something like "the probable cause affidavit says this, what about it, can we go over that part of it?" There's no mention of that in the Fox article. That quote implies the reporter just accepted Luthiers statement at face value and doesn't even know about the affidavit because if he did he surely would have asked about it don't you think? How many times have we critized reporters on one side of the political divide or the other for not asking detailed questions with followup? Of course we all have different opinions on this. I just wish you and others would argue where I may be wrong according to the law, not whether you agree with the raid itself or not. I've already said I think this whole thing sucks and in that I completely agree with you but the law is the law. Try pointing out where the investigator is wrong in his analysis about illegal declarations on those Customs docs. As I said earlier you probably agree that ICE should be enforcing immigration laws, right? Well this is also ICE. They souldn't be enforcing these laws? That's all I'm saying. Interpritation of the law is nothing but technicalities. Here's the latest one: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/09/1...test=latestnewsA PhD candidate college student is now on the hook for $675,000 for illegal downloading of music. How sucky is that? It's the law and it is what it is. I'll bet a lot of us don't agree with that one either. Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Bob, Quote:
I just wish you and others would argue where I may be wrong according to the law, not whether you agree with the raid itself or not.
That’s easy. You are presuming Gibson is guilty. By law, they are innocent until proven guilty.
You keep saying the affidavit is the only thing people should talk about, even though the affidavit is only the Feds side of the issue. Addressing the affidavit publicly is exactly the type of thing the lawyers would tell Gibson and Luthiers Mercantile NOT to do.
Presumably there was an affidavit involved in the first raid that made all kinds of accusations against Gibson, yet no charges were ever filed. It’s been almost a month since the second raid, and still no charges have been filed.
As far as talking about the raid, please note the title of the thread. “Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!?” It’s not “Let’s Parse the Affidavit Against Gibson”.
We are exactly on topic to talk about the raid, agree or disagree as to whether it should have ever happened, and even to speculate about possible motives. The affidavit is part of the topic, but it's not the only part.
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Sigh. Okee dokee. Understandably since this is a forum mostly comprised of guitar players, most took the side of Gibson. Fine. You and others basically said it's all politically motivated and therefore they raided Gibson for no good reason. All I've done is point out there is a good reason and it's called probable cause. The feds had to present that affidavit to a federal judge so they can get a warrant. That's not easy to do. Federal judges don't agree to a full blown raid with guns and everything else lightly and since they're completely independent they're supposed to be immune from political pressure. That affidavit is all there is to talk about IMHO because nothing else has surfaced about this of a factual nature that can be looked up and verified. You're a good guy so it's time to say... Peace brother  Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Hey bobcflatpicker--
gimmie a phone call if you can today...
--Mac
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Here is an update from an article from yesterday. Quote:
Feds To Gibson: Hand over more wood!
http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2011/09/28/feds-to-gibson-give-us-more-wood.html
Federal authorities are pressuring Nashville-based Gibson Guitar to hand over an additional 25 bundles of Indian wood that the company allegedly planned to use in its famous guitars.
The Feds never fail to disappoint.
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I don't doubt they had legal cause to do this. I just question our law-enforcement priorities when most murderers never get caught and you have meth labs springing up everywhere.
- Bud
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Here’s a pretty good update on the Gibson raid from yesterday. “After Gibson Raid, Other Guitar Makers at Risk of Breaking Law” http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/...3_lnk1%7C101984Quote:
It's as sweet a sound as you can imagine. A $10,000 guitar expertly crafted by the hands of Dave Berkowitz, a master luthier in Washington, D.C.
But Berkowitz's guitars include fretboards and bridges made from Indian rosewood and ebony, which the U.S. Fish and Wildlife service declared to be illegal to import in its actions against Gibson Guitar back in August. Now, every time Berkowitz uses that wood to build his immaculate instruments, he is potentially breaking the law.
"I use the exact same ebony and rosewood fingerboards that were confiscated in August from Gibson," Berkowitz told Fox News.
Does that mean he is "engaging in illegal business practices?"
"Well, technically speaking, yes, because they have declared the materials I'm using illegal," he said.
But whether the Indian rosewood and ebony that Berkowitz and Gibson -- and so many other guitar makers -- use is really illegal depends on who is asked.
According to the Indian government, fingerboard "blanks" -- the wood that will eventually become a guitar's fretboard -- are legal to export.
"Fingerboard is a finished product and not wood in primary form," Vinod Srivastava, India's deputy director-general of foreign trade, stipulated in a letter dated Sept. 16. "The foreign trade policy of the government of India allows free export of such finished products of wood."
There’s several good points covered in the article, including NAMM weighing in and it’s worth the read for those who’ve followed this issue.
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