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This started on another forum where everybody went off about how egg cartons on the wall "do nothing for the room and are a fire hazard".
My take is this. While I do not contest that acoustic foam is the ultimate sound control wall surface, some of us don't have several hundred dollars to buy such an item that in a home studio environment is really an overkill frill. I have always believed that ANYTHING on a wall that will disturb a smooth surface pattern is better than the hard face of the drywall that is likely there now, so why not cardboard egg cartons? The goal is to make the room anechoic, correct? All the anechoic foam wall material I have ever seen is the wedge shape, and I have to ask the people here who work in real studios this simple question.
Is it the SHAPE of the foam that baffles the sound, the material itself, or a combination of both? Now, for me, everything I record is direct anyway, so it isn't a big deal.
I have seen room baffles made of foam squares of different sizes and heights all glued in a random pattern on a 4x8 surface. I have also seen curved plexiglass room baffles placed at random locations, I suppose to create round reflective surfaces rather than just the 4 square corners of a room.
I studied music, not acoustics, so I have no clue, just what I think is logical. After years of watching people hang blankets, foam mattress pads and every other absorbent surface on walls, I'd like to ask people who actually know for their opinions.
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Eddie,
When we moved into our house in 1992 I converted a large family room on the first floor into a home studio. I ordered 3" thick acoustic foam. It cost a few hundred dollars then. Now it would cost over a grand. I had to use adhesive to attach it to the walls. I covered everything except 2 windows which were double pane.
My main concern was not just having a quiet environment for myself with no sound from outside traffic, but also that no sound left my house and disturbed my neighbors.
After I finished it if I stood over 4-5 feet away from my house you could not hear anything from my studio. I put music on at a very loud level and you could not hear it out side.
The construction of it was fun. It was like a puzzle. Not unlike putting up a drop ceiling. A large expense was getting a large solid core door. I had to have someone install it. It weighed a ton.
I thought the foam was going to be a bear to cut and piece together but it was a breeze. All you need is an Electric Knife, a ruler, a Sharpie maker and a long straight edge. The electric knife cuts the foam super clean and straight.
Years ago my band used egg carbons and I never heard any difference. But it was a small room.
My home studio was a very large room and when the foam was up, just walking into the room was startling. It was so dead. Everyone had to get used to hearing their voice with no reflections. It was very strange in the beginning. But later the fact that I could go downstairs and play and record at any hour and not disturb anyone in my house was amazing. If I couldn't sleep I could play any hour of the day or night.
The isolation was wonderful. I got my best ideas and recordings, being so isolated right in my own home. The studio was torn out after a flood in 2006. All the sheetrock had to be replaced anyway because of the flood. Also because there was no way to get the adhesive off the walls so floor to ceiling replacing.
I know I didn't answer your question but I thought I'd tell you my one experience with a home studio. I could be home playing and singing at normal volume and my wife didn’t even know. It was something else.
Wayne,
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The older design PAPER based, typically gray in color egg carton material does indeed improve acoustic reflections when implemented in a proper fashion -- and that is measurable with the proper test equipments such as real time analyzer. I have done those measurements in the past.
If some youngster tried to use the newer blown plastic "styrofoam" type egg crates, I doubt seriously if they would provide the same level of absorption.
Yes, there is indeed a fire hazard involved with the old gray paper egg crates. That said, they were rather ubiquitous in smaller radio station studios at one time. I've even heard of people claiming to have somehow chemically treated the paper material style with some type of fire retardant, don't know what that might be and would question the amount of effectiveness of such, as well as possible chemical exposures over time, which these days should be a serious consideration as well.
Consider using modern fire resistant rug material on the center portions of each of the hard walls.
--Mac
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My question with the "fire hazard" part of it is more like "Is my house suddenly more likely to catch fire if I staple 100 paper egg cartons on my wall?" Nobody smokes in my house so there is no flame ever. Gar range.... I mean if my house catches fire it catches fire. I don't see the egg cartons being some sort of candidate for spontaneous combustion. I have HUNDREDS of the paper cartons that someone was saving and gave to me. The styrofoam ones I wouldn't use anyway. They seem more reflective than absorbent.
I don't know if I am going to bother or not because I record everything direct anyway, but this debate has been going on forever and I wondered what the opinions would be here. First I need to paint and get the track lighting up. And my see through windows to see from one room to the other (where the drummer would sit for live recording).
Live recording IS in my future but for now I just record RB parts and it is all through a mixer with the room level down low.
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Having actually studied acoustics I can assure you it is the shape and the material as it pertains to absorption. However you can do better than the cartons with strategically placed comforters and or clothes closets in your recording space. More important is adressing your specific need. What is the point of our desire to acousrically treat your room?
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Hang curtains, install carpet, tack up carpet padding and spray all one color. Remember that old bumpy celled carpet pad, hhhmmm!
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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Good comments all!!!
What I am concerned about is when I DO have live players in that the room will become too live and there will be a lot of sound bouncing where things I don't want in a mic will find there way, there will be room reverb that I prefer to not have (that's why we have digital reverb units, right? to add it like we want it?). One room will be isolated for the drummer and I want THAT room totally flat.
The room is carpeted but the walls are bare, all drywall.
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Check out Ethan Winer at http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.htmlI had a studio in a square room where you could hardly hear yourself speak for reflections, music was a pain, all bass rumble. I made up three bass traps with Rockwool heavy duty mineral wool insulation in wooden frames and stood them in the corners. It was a difference like night and day!! I didn't bother with the forth corner. The frames were 12cm thick with two 6cm layers of insulation held in by chicken wire. I covered one side with cloth for looks and put little roller wheels under them so that I could move them around easy. The insulation is fireproof too. Check google for bass traps, there are loads of ideas out there. I saw one instance where one person just rolled the insulation into columns and stood them in the room. They just seem to suck up all the excess bass. For the reflection problem, any uneven surface helps, book shelves, furniture whatever.
Chris
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Besides hanging carpets and comforters, look into moving pads.
They weren't very expensive years ago and they work great. They're also indestructible.
We used them for covering walls, beds and floors. They were quilted. Some were black which looked great on everything and some were light natural color. They were all big enough to cover a king sized bed. Which was big enough for anything we needed.
Wayne,
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around here it is possible to buy foam mattress pads which are flat on one side and egg-carton shaped on the other side... They're very inexpensive, and I've been wondering if thay would be useful as a wall covering in my little studio.
thoughts?
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Any stains on em?  They should help. I made wedges containing two different layers of foam in varying stiffness, with pillow stuffing in the heart of the 'V' and sewn into a material to keep it all together. Placed on the wall opposite the monitors they helped a lot with the direct reflections I was getting. There is enough furniture that standing waves were not an issue but the early reflections bothered me. Those helped.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Whether or not there are smokers present is not the only input to the fire problem.
--Mac
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Quote:
Whether or not there are smokers present is not the only input to the fire problem.
--Mac
Understood, Mac, but my view is this and I wonder if it is wrong or at worst only partially right.
IF there was to be some sort of catalyst (like I play too hot a guitar solo) is the issue that the paper egg cartons are more flammable than the alternative option of foam or moving pads or curtains or carpeting?
One reply suggested that the sound deadening is a property of both the shape and the material itself. That being said, foam mattress pad seems to fit the bill at the most moderate cost. Stain free, of course....
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A dead space is not always best. My favorite drum room has one brick wall to the side of the drum set, and the rest of the room is pretty dead (drop ceiling with insulation above, carpet with thick padding, insulated walls that are short in length with stepped out 'L' shapes that seem to trap), but not 'dead' by any means.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Quote:
IF there was to be some sort of catalyst (like I play too hot a guitar solo) is the issue that the paper egg cartons are more flammable than the alternative option of foam or moving pads or curtains or carpeting?
Eddie,
if your guitar playing is so HOT that it sets the egg cartons on fire, I want to buy all your CDs!!
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Quote:
Eddie,
if your guitar playing is so HOT that it sets the egg cartons on fire, I want to buy all your CDs!!
I think I'm safe.....
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Quote:
Having actually studied acoustics I can assure you it is the shape and the material as it pertains to absorption. However you can do better than the cartons with strategically placed comforters and or clothes closets in your recording space. More important is addressing your specific need. What is the point of our desire to acoustically treat your room?
Scott:
Your knowledge of acoustics obviously gets you to the correct answer (are egg cartons effective?).
I have an elementary acoustics background, so I approach this from an energy point of view. Considering that sound is a form of energy helps to understand the phenomenon. When a sound wave (alternating positive and negative air pressure) hits a surface, some energy is absorbed when the surface deflects under the pressure - softer surfaces absorb more energy than hard reflective surfaces such as glass.
Any soft surface that will readily deflect when the sound wave strikes it will absorb energy, and this will reduce the amount of sound energy reflected.
Another "energy trap" (which Scott understands better than I) are spaces in the surface of the material that a sound wave strikes. When some of the sound wave goes into the small spaces, it doesn't get reflected out immediately, but gets absorbed as it bounces off the soft surfaces. The deep recesses of anechoic chambers employ this strategy; not only is the foam soft, it's porous, and the deep recesses trap the sound energy enabling more of it to be absorbed.
In the Winspear Centre in Edmonton AB, the hard masonry walls are hung with heavy curtains that can be raised or lowered to adjust the reflectivity of the walls. With the touch of a few buttons, the motorized curtains can be accurately "tuned" to achieve the appropriate reflectivity for the music being performed. This is simply a sophisticated application of Scott's suggestion.
So it's not going to break the bank, but may take some time to get the desired result.
Glenn
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Here is my main problem guys, and thus the idea of trying the egg cartons. I will try to draw in ASCII are what my room looks like.
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The rooms I use were an attic made into bedrooms by the previous owner of the home. The angles represent drywall at the angle of the roof, then the flat ceiling is about 7 1/2 ft. Sadly the house was built in 1965 in the style of the bungalow homes of that era and the stairway leading up in in the dead center of the house, thus the 2 rooms. And I have nowhere to relocate the stairway so I can make it one big room. So I am stuck with this barn shaped room with hard surfaces. There are more issues but maybe photos are needed. They built knee walls for closets and such on one side, which works well for a place to put the guitar stand and the fridge and microwave as well as a closet to keep cables and tools and such. The other side is a total mess where everything I don't use gets tossed. Gig bags, the stuff I use for live play, etc..... That only gets cleaned up when I have a drummer in.
I don't know if I even NEED to worry about room acoustics. If it was a professional studio I would say yes, but I am just a home guy who plays for my own enjoyment and to maybe write a hit someday, but even at that it wouldn't be recorded here.
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Some treatment may actually help with the listening enjoyment, whether you record a hit there or not. Just my opinion. I enjoy listening in the treated room better .. of course that is also where the best monitors are too, so that probably factors in.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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I LOVE LOVE LOVE my powered Wharfedales!!! LOVE THEM!
Such bottom end response and crisp highs....100w each and I bought them on sale in 2009 for $129 each, down from $169. AND, originally I wanted the 8.1 model because I didn't care if I had the bigger woofer or not. The store I was ordering from only had 1 of them available. The order kid suggested I buy 2 of the 8.2 model, and I said that even that slightly higher price put them out of my budget, and I really didn't want mismatched monitors, so he sold me a pair of the 8.2 at the 8.1 sale price to make the sale.
They are great.
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