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Richard, Quote:
Just stirrin' the puddin', folks.
We've been stirrin' it pretty good already, in case you hadn't noticed.  
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bobcflatpicker, Quote:
I hope you’ll accept the apology.
Yes.
In my 2nd post I also said NO OFFENSE (offence in US English) TAKEN, so an apology was not really nescessary.
Anonymity is the alleged beauty of the Internet, it is also the curse. 
Alyn
Last edited by gibson; 09/11/11 02:44 AM.
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Quote:
Just stirrin' the puddin', folks.
that phrase is worded a little differently here in North Carolina... but if puddin' is what you normally find in diapers, then it means the same thing. 
Quote:
We've been stirrin' it pretty good already, in case you hadn't noticed.
but all in good fun!
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If we all had the same opinions, it would get boring pretty fast.
100% agreement! Which is why I think its better to discuss controversial topics in a respectful non-volatile way rather than to have a policy of censorship in which any topic that people might have different opinions about is banned.
Everybody wants freedom of speech, but most forums go about it the wrong way. They try to stifle the expression of opinions.. but that's the OPPOSITE of free speech!
The trick is for the whole group to insist that opinions be stated without denigrating the opponent in any way. Trust the idea to stand on its own two feet. Once a group starts to enforce that sort of respect, it becomes possible to go ANYWHERE without causing flames.
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Quote:
Hi,
I'm a big fan of band in a box and recently showed the program to another musician when she visited me. I thought that she would be really impressed but I ended up sorry that I mentioned it to her at all. It came across that she thought she was far too professional to consider using the program and that band in a box is for lesser capable musicians than herself, amateur musicians like me in fact
I know everyone’s opinion is different and she is perfectly entitled to hers, just wondering has anyone else has this reaction to band in a box too?
Regards
Jan
I'll add a comment to this.
Let's say you are a guitar player/singer/songwriter and you've written this wonderful song you want to share. What is the difference between using BIAB to do the parts you can't do and hiring other players to do the parts you can't play?
Same goes for live. I keep hearing that line" interaction between the players is important". I'll tell you a little secret. (Some musical genres excluded.)I've played pro for a well known artist. You played it his way and his way only. All the time every time.I've also opened and done monitor sound for many, many pros and they say the same thing when asked. "How do you like playing for so & so".In most cases it's "well if you don't mind playing the same 10 songs over & over & over the same way with the same little stories etc. It's OK".
If you are not the headliner and are just a hired gun as we call them BIAB or RB offere way more ability to express yourself then a real band.
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Quote:
If you are not the headliner and are just a hired gun as we call them BIAB or RB offere way more ability to express yourself then a real band.
Bingo!
Regardless of how anyone may feel about BIAB, I think it is a true statement that Peter Gannon has done more to empower the average musician than anybody else in this century. Maybe for ever.
(Thanks, Peter and teamPG)
SUCK-UP-O-METER
0_________/_100
but, hey, they deserve it
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Quote:
I have lived to see the same musicians who panned BiaB at one time come to me and pay me money to make backing tracks for them to play a certain performance, and I often do that with BiaB as the basis. ac
Same experience here...(except for the money)
I've tried to get my musician son interested in BIAB for years... but he thinks he's too cool for that. However, he recently asked me to add some cool jazz keys and sax tracks to a song his jazz 3 piece recorded.
I keep telling him and everybody else... "maybe YOU can't play every instrument.. but BIAB can..."
BIAB-IS-COOL-O-METER
0______________/_100
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I can't get most of my musician friends to look at Band in a Box. They just don't seem to get it. Many like to play along with records - copy licks. There is some value to that but with Band in a Box you can make your own stuff, pretty easily too.
- Bud
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Quote:
I can't get most of my musician friends to look at Band in a Box.
So, you might say it gives you one-up on them. You can do what they do, PLUS!
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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I was in Sam Ash some time ago messing around on various keyboards. I started talking to some kids who wanted to learn more about music. They can already play fairly well and I started talking about Biab and they loved the idea. Another guy was standing off to the side and he said he liked what I was playing and why would a good player like me mess around with a toy program like Biab? I started by asking him what he knew about it and he basically hadn't seen it for years. I told him a bit about the new stuff and I also asked him about his set up and what he was doing in his home studio. He proceeded to tell me about a fabulous home studio he has and some commercial clients he's worked with. All Mac based using Logic Pro with thousands of dollars worth of outboard stuff and I could tell right away he's not only a pro level player, he's a pro level recording engineer too. I immediately switched gears and started talking about forum member Harvey Gerst. If you guys don't know him, google his name. He's a heavyweight producer who owns a multimillion dollar studio in Texas. He will use Biab to fill in some tracks for his lower end clients who can't afford to hire a full band for demos. He posted some examples here a few years ago and they sounded awesome.
The point here is it all depends on who you're talking to and what level they're at. If it's somebody like that guy in Sam Ash, I would agree, to him Biab is a toy program unless he needs something very specific like Harvey does occasionally. Same thing with a music teacher I know who has three locations, he has maybe 10 good teachers working for him and he too has a very elaborate home studio set up in his living room no less including a 9 foot concert grand. He uses Biab all the time but just for his students to practice with. As for him personally he never uses it and has no interest. He even told me point blank as far as he's concerned, it's just for the kids. If he needs to lay down a track of whatever instrument he brings a friend over, gives him a beer and they lay down the track. Oh yeah, his wife is a classical music professor at Cal State Long Beach so she can bring in all those players too.
Obviously I disagree with these assesments but from their point of view I can see where they're coming from. These guys are true pros and even if they might wind up liking Biab, they don't have time to load it up and learn it. They're purists with the ability to actually live up to that artistic purity. They have no interest in automatic backing tracks.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Bob,
Thanks for the best, and most honest post on this topic.
I think a lot of folks who post here are afraid that Peter Gannon is going to see it and get pissed and tailor their comments accordingly.
If you can afford and have access to pro level musicians, then you’d be crazy to use BIAB, except for sketching out tunes and practicing.
Since most of us can’t afford or have access to pro level musicians, then BIAB is a “Godsend” for us. It allows us to be able to create songs with a myriad of instruments and styles. No other program that I’m aware of can do that.
We all know the cliché’s about why BIAB is better than live musicians, (doesn’t eat all your food and drink all of your beer, doesn’t hit on your girlfriend, doesn’t smoke all of your weed, is never late for practice, isn’t a bad influence on your chil’run, CAN play almost any instrument, …etc.)
But we shouldn’t misrepresent the program and say it’s a legitimate replacement for talented musicians in a "pro" setting. It isn’t. JMHO, so please don’t flame me or try to "debate" me for speaking the truth.
Last edited by bobcflatpicker; 09/13/11 03:24 PM.
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No you are right on on all of that. Sure if we had access to Pro talent we would all record that way. But most of us don't.
For me it allows me to build darned good backing tracks, and to make music that i enjoy, and can share with others without the cost, hassle, and involvement of a pile of other musicians (both singers and instrumentalist) LOL sorry Bob I had to, my rascal took over!
I do think that a lot of folks over look it because of the stigma of generated material.
I have posted links songs that were made with Biab at other sties and had folks that run small studios that are making a living with those studios, comment in amasement at the quality of what i posted.
I just say i worked with a REAL good BAND!
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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There's quite a few players I know who aren't interested in doing a duo or trio gig without a drummer. They will only work with a full band and that's great I certainly prefer that too. Still, I like to play and lately it's been 50/50 full band gigs and small trio gigs where I'm doing the "band" with my Korg arranger keyboard. I could do those gigs with Biab on my laptop too but it's just a bit easier with the Korg.
We could load up a few Biab songs on our smartphones and just play them when the subject comes up...
I'll bet if I did that at Sam Ash I would have raised a few eyebrows. Hmm, I just thought of that just now. I think I will do exactly that.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Honestly, even if I could afford "pro" level musicians, I prefer a computer for all the reasons I have stated all along. My computer never got drunk at a gig, hit on my girlfriend, forgot an arrangement, asked for more money, hit clams all night, whined because it didn't like three of the songs in the set.... I prefer to keep the human element out of things as much as possible.
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Quote:
Thanks for the best, and most honest post on this topic.
I think a lot of folks who post here are afraid that Peter Gannon is going to see it and get pissed and tailor their comments accordingly.
But we shouldn’t misrepresent the program and say it’s a legitimate replacement for talented musicians in a "pro" setting. It isn’t. JMHO, so please don’t flame me or try to "debate" me for speaking the truth.
Not a flame, just an alternative point of view:
I don't think its a matter of being afraid as much as it is a matter of discretion.
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Pat,
I think you are missing my point.
People should feel free to make comments that are, or appear to be critical of BIAB without feeling obligated to “balance” it out with another comment praising it, thereby pegging the SUCK-UP-O-METER you referenced out at 100%.
Over the years, if people hadn’t given honest comments that are sometimes critical, I don’t think PG would have made as many advances as it has.
Customer feedback isn’t always supposed to be good.
If I hadn’t pointed out the shortcomings of BIAB in handling bluegrass in a lengthy thread that was joined by a lot of folks, including Peter Gannon, it’s possible the changes in BIAB 2011 wouldn’t have been made. (FYI: BIAB used to treat virtually all bluegrass as 16th notes, even though it’s written and played as 8th’s. It was a huge problem. I believe that was fixed in 2011, but since I’m stuck on 2009 for financial reasons, I’m not sure.)
My criticism wasn’t done for the purpose of slamming the program, but to get someone to pay attention or at least acknowledge the problem. Posts on the wish list didn’t do the trick. The thread did. Peter participated extensively, as did Mac and several other PG “gurus”. One or two folks who didn’t really participate in the discussion, at the end of it they said they followed it and learned a lot about note values and timing, and how that relates to styles and finding what works and what doesn’t.
I hope that clarifies my comment.
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Quote:
Pat,
I think you are missing my point.{/quote]
fact is there are at least two different points here, and which one a person embraces depends on which result he wants to obtain
Quote:
People should feel free to make comments that are, or appear to be critical of BIAB without feeling obligated to “balance” it out with another comment praising it, thereby pegging the SUCK-UP-O-METER you referenced out at 100%.
Are you suggesting it would be appropriate, if invited to someone's home for an evening of enjoyment and a free meal, to spend the evening talking junk about the host's cooking, or decorating or way of dressing or amount of ugly? in the name of helping him improve?? Even if everything you said was true?
I use that metaphor because PGMusic provides this forum for a specific purpose, and that purpose is not our entertainment. It is an advertising medium for their product. If you paid for TV advertising time for your bluegrass band, and the camera man kept interjecting audible statements like "But a lot of people don't like this band" I doubt that you'd be OK with that.
Quote:
Over the years, if people hadn’t given honest comments that are sometimes critical, I don’t think PG would have made as many advances as it has. Customer feedback isn’t always supposed to be good.
agreed. But here's where discretion applies. If you're at a party and you have a piece of food visibly stuck on your chin, you'd obviously want to correct the problem. But would you rather that somebody shouts out at the party "HEY BOB! THERE"S A CHONK O' MEATBALL ON YOUR CHIN! HAHAHA " or would you rather have someone take you aside quietly and advise you of the matter so you can correct it and maintain your dignity at the same time?
Quote:
If I hadn’t pointed out the shortcomings of BIAB in handling bluegrass in a lengthy thread that was joined by a lot of folks, including Peter Gannon, it’s possible the changes in BIAB 2011 wouldn’t have been made. (FYI: BIAB used to treat virtually all bluegrass as 16th notes, even though it’s written and played as 8th’s. It was a huge problem. I believe that was fixed in 2011, but since I’m stuck on 2009 for financial reasons, I’m not sure.)
I've noticed that Peter tends to get involved when topics require damage control. The corollary to the SUCK-UP-O-METER is the INDISCRETE-O-METER, and if Peter is gettting involved in your thread, it's probably an indication that the topic would have been better handled in a less visible way.
Quote:
My criticism wasn’t done for the purpose of slamming the program, but to get someone to pay attention or at least acknowledge the problem. Posts on the wish list didn’t do the trick. The thread did. Peter participated extensively, as did Mac and several other PG “gurus”. One or two folks who didn’t really participate in the discussion, at the end of it they said they followed it and learned a lot about note values and timing, and how that relates to styles and finding what works and what doesn’t.
I've noticed that at work hourly employees often take the same tactic of open confrontation in meetings with management when they feel that issues are not being addressed fast enough. And it is true that the squeaky wheel gets the oil. But its also true that its often presented as an employee who is smarter than management telling them how dumb they are.. when in fact, management is generally far more aware of the issues than the employee. Such confrontation often forces management to divert resources that should really be used elsewhere just to appease the squeaky wheel and prevent insurrection. (ie damage control)
Furthermore, in this case nothing that was said could possibly lead to a product improvement. In a nutshell the comments were entirely subjective, along the lines of why some people choose not to use the product. How can a company fix people's choices? You seemed to be validating the idea that its not a suitable tool for professional musicians, when in fact many other people have commented that lots of pros DO use the product.
Such statements made in an open forum intended to favorably advertise the product are at best misleading and at worst, just plain inaccurate. A professional musician reading the forum, who might have seen MAc's comment and wanted top try it, might have seen the subsequent comments and changed his mind.
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I hope that clarifies my comment.
ditto
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Pat, Quote:
PGMusic provides this forum for a specific purpose, and that purpose is not our entertainment. It is an advertising medium for their product.
I respectfully disagree Pat, but since you believe that, it explains your thinking.
Forums for any product aren’t there for the company. They exist for the users. The users pay for the forums by purchasing the product, and with most of us, we’ve purchased it over and over in the form of upgrades. We aren’t “guests” or “freeloaders” here, we’re paying customers.
In addition to paying for the forums by purchasing and promoting the product, the forum users frequently act as “tech support”, saving PG time and money.
Quote:
I've noticed that Peter tends to get involved when topics require damage control. ……………………. and if Peter is gettting involved in your thread, it's probably an indication that the topic would have been better handled in a less visible way.
Silly me. I thought Peter got involved in that thread because he’s a good businessman and he wanted to address the problem and find out the specifics so he could do so. (Actually I do believe that’s why he did). The problem had been brought up on the forum before, but never on a dedicated thread and in a detailed manner. Near the end of the discussion, he said he’d make a concerted effort to fix it. Being a man of his word, he did just that.
Peter’s participation wasn’t “damage control”, as you insinuate. It was a company owner showing legitimate concern for a problem and wanting to fix it. I appreciate that. It speaks well of him and his company.
The forum isn’t an “advertising medium”, as you suggest. It’s a tool for the users, (one that we are paying for). It also increases the customer loyalty because the users build relationships and realize they have more than just “customer support” to find solutions to their problems.
To compare it to being invited to a "free" dinner at someone's home is ludicrous. We paid for the steak, so it's okay to say how we'd like to have it cooked. (Bad analogy I know, but it's yours). 
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I have been reading this thread with interest. I have to agree with Bob. It appears that
the SUCK-UP-O-Meter has maxed out. I have used this program on hundreds of gigs in Church and private parties and Casinos. It has been received very well. I only use Drums
and Bass and a touch of Keys sparingly. I recently had the pleasure to jam with an old friend that is a Pro Jazz keyboard player. After a couple of my BIAB arrangements he said " Let's do it without the machine". It just isn't for everyone. But it is a fantastic practise tool.
Dave
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I too have had the reaction that biab is for learners. What a load of cr*p ! Like guitarman I just can't get to grips with real band as much as I've tried.
I'll just stick with my original set up of biab and then working with sonar.
On the other hand there's been MANY expert musicians who've been highly impressed with biab and have been dying to try it out for themselves.
I'm delighted at the work that goes into each release. All to often you have software that is several years old ( no namedropping I'm afraid ) you get the latest version which si a few hundred quid ( dollars ) dearer than the one you paid for only to find there's been little change in the bells & whistles. Personally I think that's disgusting.
I have tried a couple of other music programmes but nothing came near my beloved band in a box.
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Quote:
I think a lot of folks who post here are afraid that Peter Gannon is going to see it and get pissed and tailor their comments accordingly.
Well, that ain't it.
Trust me on that one. *grin*
--Mac
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Check out all the new features in the redesigned Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac - Special Offers End at 11:59pm PDT on Friday, May 15th, 2026!
Order before 11:59pm PDT on Friday, May 15th and SAVE up to 50% on most Band-in-a-Box® version 2026 for Mac Upgrade packages... and that's not all! With your version 2026 for Mac purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons FREE! Upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks... that's 222 NEW RealTracks available with version Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac!
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® today for as little as $49! Check out the Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all available purchase options.
Learn more about the Free Bonus PAK and 49-PAK here.
If you have any questions about which package is the best option for you, just let us know. We're here to help!
202 New RealTracks Released with Band-in-a-Box 2026!
With Band-in-a-Box® 2026, we've released 202 incredible new RealTracks (in sets 468-488) in a variety of genres—featuring your most requested styles!
Jazz, Funk & World (Sets 468-475):
Our new jazz, funk & blues RealTracks include a groovin’ collection of RealTracks and RealDrums! These include more requested “soul jazz” RealTracks featuring artists Neil Swainson (bass), Charles Treadway (organ), Brent Mason (guitar), and Wes Little (drums). There are new “smooth jazz” styles (4), which include a RealTracks first: muted trumpet, as well as slick new smooth jazz brushes options for drums. Blues lovers will be thrilled—there are more “classic acoustic blues” styles, including guitar (5), bass (4), and drums (10) with blues master Colin Linden, featuring understated and tasty background acoustic soloing, plus brushes drums and acoustic bass. There are also new electric blues RealTracks, including electric blues with PG favorite Johnny Hiland (3) and soulful electric slide guitar from Colin Linden (4). If you love funk & gospel, there are great new options this year, including gospel organ (3) from Charles Treadway, as well as new funk, tango, and rock ’n’ roll drums (3) and bass (1). And for big, bold arrangements, we have uptempo soul horns (4) featuring a three-part hip horn section with options for a full mix or stems of each individual horn — plus an accompanying rhythm section (4) of drums, bass, guitar, and electric piano!
Rock & Pop (Sets 476–482):
Our new rock & pop RealTracks bring a powerful mix of requested favorites, fresh genres, and modern chart-inspired styles! We have more of our popular “Producer Layered Acoustic Guitars (15)” featuring Band-in-a-Box favorite Brent Mason. We’ve continued our much-requested disco styles (10), and added new Celtic guitar (5) with a more basic, accessible approach than our previous Drop-D or DADGAD offerings. There are also highly requested yacht rock styles (17), inspired by the smooth, polished soft-rock sound of the late ’70s and early ’80s — laid-back grooves, silky electric pianos, warm textures, elegant harmonic movement, and pristine production aesthetics. Fans of heavier styles will love our new glam metal (13), capturing the flashy, high-energy sound of ’80s arena-ready guitar rock. We also have a set of rootsy modern-folk rock (18), with a warm, organic sound combining contemporary folk textures and driving acoustic strumming. And we’ve added lots of new modern pop styles (16) — the kinds of sounds you’re hearing on the radio today, featuring exciting new drums, synths, and cutting-edge RealTracks arrangements.
Country, & Americana (Sets 483–488):
Our new country & Americana RealTracks deliver a rich collection of acoustic, electric, and roots-inspired styles! We have new country pop (9) with legendary guitarist Brent Mason. There is also a potpourri (14) of bouzouki, guitars, banjo, and more, perfect for adding texture and character to contemporary acoustic arrangements. We’ve added funky country guitar (5) with PG favorite Brent Mason, along with classic pedal steel styles (5) featuring steel great Doug Jernigan. There are more country songwriter styles (8) that provide intimate, rootsy foundations for storytelling and modern Americana writing. Finally, we have “background soloing” acoustic guitar (12) with Brent Mason — simpler, but still very tasty acoustic lines designed to sit beautifully behind vocals or act as a subtle standalone solo part.
Check out all the 202 new RealTracks (in sets 468-488)!
And, if you are looking for more, the 2026 49-PAK (for $49) includes an impressive collection of 20 bonus RealTracks, featuring exciting and inspiring additions to add to your RealTracks library. You'll get new country-rhythm guitar styles from PG Music favorites Johnny Hiland and Brent Mason, along with modern-pop grooves that capture today’s radio-ready sound! There are also new indie-folk styles with guitar, bass, 6-string bass used as a high-chording instrument, acoustic guitar, and banjo. Plus, dedicated "cymbal fills" RealDrums provide an added layer that work very well with low-key folky styles with other percussion.
The 2026 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2026 49-PAK!
2026 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
With your version 2026 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
- MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
- Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
- Playable RealTracks Set 5
- RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
- SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
- iOS Android Band-in-a-Box® App
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
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