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Even though my question was not who`s to be called a musician or not, but rather "Why do so many females want to become singers", I have another one:
Isn`t a musician a profession/occupation/job description? At least it`s in the German language...No matter how good one is, as long as they make enough money to live from it you`re a musician. Personally I`d rather go with the quality indicator though;-))
Jussayin´
Sandra
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Sandra, Quote:
"Why do so many females want to become singers"
I’ll venture an educated guess. …… Role models.
When was the last time you saw a female lifted up and “lauded” for being a great musician, (aka instrumentalist) ???
I don’t need to list the number of female singers as “role models”. Shucks, …… they don’t even have to be able to sing! Auto tune will fix that. They just have to be pretty and photogenic.
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Carol Kaye Esperanza Spalding Alicia Keys (keys not vox) Tori Amos Kaki King Emmylou Harris Allison Krauss ...come to mind immediately as recognized for being good instrumentalists / performers / songwriters. I did have to think for a minute or so to come up with this list. Most of these have been mentioned here in PG Forums threads of which I have either read or had some contribution. If I use the same criteria for men, I can generate a list 10 times longer in a shorter amount of time. Now, however, I will go in a different direction with this discussion, as I think it mainly has to do with cultural and societal trends and so forth. Why are so many inventors that are recognized as being 'good', also men? Scientists? Engineers? CEOs? Political Leaders? It's a historical trend that has a chicken or the egg aspect to it that self-perpetuates. (Sandra, if that doesn't translate well - it means that there is a question behind it: Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?) Now, when one thinks of the singing musician - the list is a little more balanced I would say. These days, I would say that there is just as much booty shaking by the males as the females. That isn't to say that just because someone has good looks and can dance, that they are not talented musicians. I'm sure most would say that Elvis was a musician, but let's be honest, there are more than one reason why he became popular and he stood on lots of unrecognized shoulders to get there. I will even go out on a limb and state that I think that Justin Bieber is actually a decent musician. I don't like the cutesy pop-songs that he does, but I will say that the control he has over his voice while also breaking out some pretty impressive dance moves, involves very similar talents and control that 'legitimate' musicians employ. For other weird inspiration, take a look and listen to Tony Bennett's soon to be released new Duets album. Sorry - Tony is a musician in my book as well as most of the others on his new album. In my mind's taxonomy anyone who contributes to music as either a writer, composer, accompanist, soloist etc. is a musician, whether that sound is generated externally of their body or not. It includes paid and unpaid persons; even the old lady in the choir of the church on the corner who's voice warbles around the melody instead of on it - she is contributing to the overall sound of that choir. This even would include beat poets and rappers in my opinion. If you don't think that rapping takes musical talent, precision timing, crafty creativeness, control of making sound in a rhythmically interesting way, then just go ahead and try it yourself. I am not talking about the lyrics btw. There's plenty of 'clean' rap - but you do have to dig for it. One guy that's making it big right now is Lecrae. I encourage my kids to listen to him. The message he brings gives me chills. For technical complexity, I heard him and his band (yes it was a band with a killer drummer as well as turntable-ist and other musicians) perform this song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RWEllqh5J0live - up close and personal. I was in the front row, as I was volunteering for Compassion International and on the floor of a local arena where Lecrae and a bunch of other popular Christian artists were performing. Sure looked like he was nailing this one as well as the other songs they performed. I mean NAILING it. I was glad I had my hearing protection in, as the bass bins were earth shattering. -Scott (edited to get Sandra's name correct: First time around I had it as Sarah - oops!)
Last edited by rockstar_not; 09/12/11 06:27 AM.
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When I first started guitar lessons, my teacher was VERY strict......'twice per week or don't bother'! After a while I was playing with group.......getting some gigs......radio etc. He told me ,"You'll have to make up your mind.....singer or guitarist? You can't be both!". I switched teachers! Many years later I can understand his feelings........loss of practise time etc. Although these days there are some fine guitarist/singers....then it wasn't so common. When I started singing with my wife.....we were covering different types of material. She was able to help me with the "straighter stuff"........I (hopefully!) could assist with phrasing..feel for the genre etc. Then when our son started playing, I found that I had to practise harder just to keep up with him! It was about that time that I heard a famous concert pianist remark that ...."He could spend hours practising a 4 or 8 bar passage".......I thought, 'If a musician of that stature feels the need to do that....surely I'm not doing enough!' From then on......I've had PROPER practise sessions on both guitar & banjo every day......AND basic singing practise.....breathing , diaphram control etc. BIAB is a great help with all of these......and it's a great feeling......(I'm sure many musos here will recognise it!)......when you discover you can play a piece now....that you couldn't play before......or sing something similar! I hope I'm not hi-jacking this thread.........some singers are WONDERFUL musicians......and some MUSICIANS are also GREAT singers! (My old guitar teacher may be turning in his grave!) Regards, Joe G. 
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Some of the "singers" consider themselves, Divas whether they are or not, while some who really are Diva quality do not think of themselves that way. In the "pop" category, Karen Carpenter has been my favorite and she was very good on drums, too.
I've noticed that some of the "singers" on the "X's Got Talent" and other similar shows have no concept of pitch. IMO
Stan
Cornet Curmudgeon
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"a composer, conductor or performer of music. ESPECIALLY INSTRUMENTALIST"
Especially, not exclusively. That definition does not supercede the ones i posted, nor does it discount anything i said. If you want to add common sense it would lean toward my argument, and away from yours. It is not common sense to ignore the full definition. of the words, and the perponderance of the evidence.
There a total of 5 dictionaries quoted, all of them included people who make music, three of which specifically included singers, one that said especially instrumentalist. NONE that excluded singers. So the common sense understanding is that Singers are included in the term musician.
So I ask respectfully exactly were does the definition exclude singers, and why does just one of the definition that leans, not fully i might add in the direction of instrumentalist become the common sense to exclude the singers.
I could say all automechanics should attend a seminar on proper techniques of head resurfacing, especially engine rebuilders. Does that mean that tuneup specialist, transmission rebuilders, Radiator and cooling mechanic, Auto electric, AC specialist, and other specialty services are excluded from attending, and therefore not automechanics?
I have a friend who works at a auto repair shop, he is rather new to the field, and has no formal training. He has learned to do oil changes, brake jobs, water pump replacement, belts and hoses. He has not been trained to rebuild a engine nor do valve jobs, and or full top end or lower end repair. But guess what he is still a mechanic. Why because he does mechanical work.
A singer, and someone who makes music is a musician. He may not be a guitaist, or a pianist, but he makes music, therefore a music - ian, or a technician of music. To me that is common sense.
As far as me chilling out, i am in no way heated up. My last post was said with a laugh!
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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Robh, Quote:
As far as me chilling out, i am in no way heated up. My last post was said with a laugh!
Good. So were mine.
As far as the definitions, you’ll notice that I said “I do not win!” prior to posting my link to Merriam-Webster. Singers ARE NOT excluded in any of these definitions. You are correct on that point. But if you look at synonyms under that definition, you’ll see “instrumentalist, player”.
My “common sense” reference should probably have been “common practice”, or something to that effect. Even that would be subject to the circle of musicians you’re talking about.
I believe that you may be thinking I’m trying to denigrate “singers” by saying they aren’t musicians. Not true. But if you asked most singers if they’re musicians, I think you’d be surprised at how many would say “no. I don’t play. I’m a singer”.
In case you missed it, I’ll quote myself:
Quote:
Maybe this will help. Even though I can sing, I wouldn’t DARE call myself a “vocalist” or a “singer”.
Since my vocal prowess is mediocre, that would be deceptive. People who actually are “Vocalists” and “Singers” would laugh their a**es off if I identified myself as either. They’d be right to do so.
By the same token, … if you say you’re a “musician”, …what’s the first question people ask? ………………”What do you PLAY?” Let’s see, …… they ASSUME that you can play an instrument! WOW!!!! That’s novel. (sic)
I personally would feel as if I’d been lied to if someone said they were a musician, and then proceeded to tell me they couldn’t play an instrument. (Padding your resume???)
By the dictionary definitions, you are technically correct to include singers, but my definition is more honest about the roles that musicians, (aka instrumentalists), and singers play in the creation of music. Both are essential to all types of music, with the exception of instrumental music.
I wish I could honestly call myself a “singer”, but I’ll have to settle for being a musician that can sing a little.
I hope we can agree to disagree and put it to rest. After all, I didn’t bring it up. I just “seconded the motion”.  
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Put to bed, tucked in and already snoring!
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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Hi
i have noticed that many more women are being used in certain bands here in the UK,theres one that always plays the new year session on tv jool`s something or other and he seems to use many women on all types of instruments,the thing i have noticed thru the years is that girls are only given the choice of flutes,recorders,pianos violins and guitars i have never met a female trombone or trumpet player some excellent saxaphone players in the jazz world but i can1t think of one brass player
regards Dave Hoskins
I always play the right notes but not always in the right order
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Quote:
Look out guys, here comes the DIVAS bigband
B-a-a-a-a-a-d
That was when they played BIRDLAND, no less.
The young ladies got CHOPS
And a Trombone Section
76 Trombones
And some GREAT CHARTS.
(Sandra -- The Guitar chair is empty right now,,,)
--Mac
Mac, I don't know how you come up with this stuff, but keep on keepin on. Chops galore from my perspective.
Stan
Cornet Curmudgeon
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Quote:
Look out guys, here comes the DIVAS bigband
B-a-a-a-a-a-d
That was when they played BIRDLAND, no less.
The young ladies got CHOPS
And a Trombone Section
76 Trombones
And some GREAT CHARTS.
(Sandra -- The Guitar chair is empty right now,,,)
--Mac
Outstanding!
I love the nonchalant attitude of the drummer, a multi-tasker looking to her right in the middle of the tune no doubt ordering takeout for her and the band and not coming close to altering meter.
Later,
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Looking left or right at the music stand for a bigband drummer is par for the course, Danny, she's not in the first video, but most do that because they are likely reading the charts.
--Mac
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Looks like she was talkin to someone.
Later,
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Might be the case. Well-schooled jazz and bigband drummers can indeed look like some kinda serious multitaskin' types...
--Mac
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Guess that puts this thread to a proper rest. 
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