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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Running BIAB 2008.5 under XP Pro along with the screen reader JAWS for Windows, I am having a problem with the DXi Synth Settings dialog and wonder if anyone has any suggestions for getting past the problem.
The basic issue is that, with JAWS running, each time I get into the Opt / MIDI and Audio Settings / DXi Synth Settings... dialog, my PC slows down to a complete crawl such that I can't use the computer anymore until I kill JAWS and BIAB. Since I am trying to continue improving the BIAB scripts associated with JAWS in order to improve the accessibility of BIAB with JAWS, this is presenting a real problem to me.
I believe that the problem has to do with one of the soft synths (loaded from another musical program on my system) which BIAB is recognizing and somehow interferes with JAWS. I don't particularly want to uninstall any of these other programs. I've noticed, however, that when these other programs are uninstalled and I only have the Edirol/Roland softh synth on the system (which I am successfully using with BIAB), this problem does not occur. Nor does the problem occur when JAWS is not running, but then I can't use the system!
Anyway, I tried removing all entries from the DXiPluginsList.ini file except the Edirol soft synth. However, when I start BIAB and go into the DXi Synth Settings dialog again, this file is repopulated.
Question: Is there some way of keeping BIAB from registering these other soft synths or might there be another way around this issue?
Thanks for any suggestions.
Below is the listing of my DXiPluginsList.ini file. perhaps someone knows if one of these synths is a particular problem?
None=
Cyclone={89D244AB-19CF-4575-B859-E6C2352BE0D4}
EDIROL VSC={429C9236-361F-4E6F-AA9A-FF39E614EF5D}
GroovePlayer={F718845E-BC87-4248-83C4-A9C99294EA63}
VST SamplePort={141AC902-7370-3135-5341-4D504C457E31}
VST sfz={141AC902-7273-667A-7366-7A0000000000}
RawPlugCount=67
-- Pete
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Hi Pete,
Do you know about the "DXi Exclusion List"?
If you hit the DXi toolbar button and then hit Options button in the window that opens, the first selection there is the "Edit DXi Exclusion List".
You should be able to tell Band in a Box to ignore those other DXi synths using that command.
--Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Mac,
Thanks. I did know about that, but, of course, couldn't use the exclusion list because a)that dialog is not verry accessible (hence I'm trying to script it for JAWS to work), and b)when I get into that dialog with JAWS running the PC slows to such a crawl that I can't do anything.
I was hoping to be able to manually edit some file (like the DXiPluginsList.ini file) to get around this problem.
I did try and navigate my wife (who is sighted) to the dialog and have her use the exclusion list without JAWS running, but she said that none of the DXi synths disappeared. Since I couldn't see what was going on, I couldn't give her any good feedback.
Thanks anyway.
-- Pete
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Gotcha.
I'lll look into that DXiPluginsList.ini idea as well as a few other things and if I find something out I'll email you.
Meanwhile, let's hope someone from PGMusic development can shed the light of those in the know on this one.
--Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Thanks. I would appreciate any suggestions.
-- Pete
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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PG Music Staff
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Hello Pete,
In the DirectX/VST Window, there are two tabs - Synth track and Audio Track, each of which has four slots to insert plugins. The Synth track tab is for MIDI tracks. The first plugin slot is where you select a DXi or VSTi synthesizer plugin such as the VSC-DXi. The other three slots allow you to add DX or VST effect plugins. The Audio track tab affects the audio track and RealTracks, and all four slots are for DX/VST plugins.
I haven't seen an issue where the DirectX window slows down like you describe, but perhaps you DO have a plugin selected that you are not aware of, and it's causing the problem. Your setup in the DirectX window is stored in the files DefaultDXAudio.tgs and DefaultDXiSynth.tgs in the DX Settings subfolder in your Band-in-a-Box folder. Try closing Band-in-a-Box and deleting these files, and this will make sure that there aren't any plugins selected in your setup. Note that you will need to reselect the VSC after you do this. Also, you might go to Opt.-Preferences-Audio in Band-in-a-Box, and uncheck "Use RealTime DX Audio Plugins".
(The other "factory*.tgs" files in the DX Settings folder have specific setups using PG plugins that you might find useful - if you wanted to use these files you can make a copy of them and rename them Default*.tgs, or you can load them while in Band-in-a-Box by pressing Load Group in the DirectX window.)
The Exclusion list is only for DX plugins. The reason it is useful is because there are usually a number of DX plugins that meet the requirements to show up in the plugin list, but actually aren't intended to be used in programs like Band-in-a-Box and other sequencers. The "factory" exclusion list included with Band-in-a-Box has a number of these plugins that are common on many computers, but if you find more, you can edit the list to prevent them from showing up in the plugin slots.
Last edited by Andrew - PG Music; 02/04/09 01:49 PM.
Andrew
PG Music Inc.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Andrew,
Thanks for your suggestions. Here is what I've learned:
1. When I remove these default*.tgs files, I don't have any problem in the DXi Synth Settings dialog - The computer responsiveness is just fine.
2. As soon as I select the Edirol VSC, the system comes to a crawl until I can't do anything. Again, this only happens when JAWS is running and the Edirol is selected (not when JAWS is turned off).
3. If I select "none" in all of the drop-down combos in that dialog, again, there is no problem with responsiveness.
Thus, I think the problem has to do somehow with a strange interaction between JAWS and the Edirol synth.
Any dieas? I'll try sending this to the JAWS support site - Perhaps they can reproduce the problem.
At least once I choose this synth BIAB playback works fine for playing tunes, I just can't use this dialog with the Edirol selected.
Thanks again.
-- Pete
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2002
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PG Music Staff
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PG Music Staff
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In the DirectX window, does the plugin show up as "Edirol VSC", or "VSC-DXi". These have the same sounds, but I think the former is bundled with a different program. What you could try, is to close Band-in-a-Box and other programs, then uninstall the Edirol VSC using the Add/Remove Programs. Then, (re)install the VSC-DXi using the setup file in the bb folder:
..\bb\vsc\VSC_Installs\VSC-DXi_Setup.exe.
Another thing that is worth trying is to use the VSC-VST version. Perhaps it is a DirectX specific problem.
Andrew
PG Music Inc.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Andrew,
Yes, the synth shows up as "Edirol VSC". I believe that this version came along with some music software which I installed from Cakewalk (either Music Creator or Sonar).
When I tried to install the Edirol synth which comes with BIAB as you suggested, the installer complained that there was a more recent version already installed and then the installer wouldn't proceed.
I also looked in Control Panel / Add/Remove Programs, but there was no listing for the Edirol or Roland synth there. I hesitate to uninstall the severall CAkewalk products just to get rid of the newer Edirol version so that I can try the one which came with BIAB (although there is no guarantee that I won't have the same problem with that version).
I wonder if I need a newer version of Direct X or something? Does this probelm occur when you have the BIAB version of the Edirol synth selected with BIAB?
Thanks again. At least I feel we're a bit closer to knowing what is going on (although I certainly don't see quick solution).
-- Pete
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Just downloaded and installed the latest Direct X from the Microsoft web site. This did not help (but it did not hurt either!).
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Some of the synths that shipped with cakewalk/sonar products at one time were somehow protected such that they could only be used with the software they came with. Maybe that's the case here. Usually when I get that prompt that there is a newer version already installed, I still am offered the choice to go ahead and install the older version overtop, you may want to check into that possibility.
--Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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PG Music Staff
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Hello Pete,
Try the VSTi version of the VSC. Once installed here is how you select it:
1. Open the DirectX/VST Window.
2. In the Plugin slot where you normally select the Edirol VSC, select "Add VSTi Plugin" from the drop-down menu.
3. You need to navigate a standard File-Open dialog ("select a VST plugin") to locate the file VSC.dll. This is normally located in C:\Program Files\Roland\Virtual Sound Canvas VST, however if you have another folder that you normally store VSTi plugins in, it may have defaulted to that folder. Select the file and press Open.
4. <VSTi> VSC should now be selected as your synth.
Note that all VSTi plugins you add to the list will show up at the bottom of the list with the <VSTi> prefix. They will remain on the list unless you were to delete the file VSTiPluginList.ini from your bb folder - then you would have to add them manually again.
Andrew
PG Music Inc.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Andrew,
Thanks for the last instructions. Just to let everyone know, the problem is now solved.
JAWS is now acting normally in the DXi Synth Settings dialog.
-- Pete
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Well, I spoke too soon.
Although there was no problem with responsiveness the first several times I got into this dialog, killed and restarted BIAB, etc., the problem quickly returned. Now, each time I get into this dialog with the vsc-vst selected and JAWS running, the computer crawls to a halt. When this happens, I can't even shut down BIAB, even if I go to the running processes and try to kill all processes in the bbw.exe process tree.
I'm out of ideas. Everything works fine if no synth is selected, but if the synth is selected it's bad news!
-- Pete
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Have you ever tried the second "Return to Factory Settings" button located in the Opts. menu? The second button down resets all MIDI and soundcard stuff and returns all the BIAB settings to square one.
Do you perhaps have the older VSC3 installed on that machine at the same time?
If so, try removing it in the Add/Remove Programs in the Control Panel.
Don't remove the VSC DXi though.
I recall one time when I troubleshot a system and for some reason those two were getting into a catfight that chewed up CPU cycles like that. Don't know why, because I had both installed on my machine for a long time without the problem. Mine was AMD based and his was an Intel. Don't know if that had anything to do with it either. All I know is that I uninstalled the older VSC3 and told him to watch it for a few days and there were no more stalls like that.
--Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Mac,
Previous to installing the vscvst which Andrew recommended, I did uninstall everything which referenced "Virtual Sound Canvas" in the Control Panel. Also, I had reset factory defaults several times.
But, your suggestion may have gotten me on the right track.
Browsing around my system, I did find a vsc.dll file in the Cakewalk VST Shared Plug-Ins folder. This is the same name as the file in the Roland / Virtual Sound Canvas folder. Curious - eh?
Although both files seemed to have the same size and create date, I noticed that their checksum was different. So, as an experiment, I copied the vsc.dll file from the roland directory to the Cakewalk directory (after saving the original of course!). I didn't see any entry for this in Control Panel.
I just tested opening and closing BIAB and the problem DXi Synth Settings dialog several times and, remarkably, didn't see any slowdown of the PC!!!
Thus, I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I'll get back to you after more extensive testing to let you know what happens.
Thanks for your advice - You must be and AudioMind genius!
-- Pete
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Oh well....
Yesterday the problem reappeared. Very strange that most time when getting into this dialog my PC slows to a crawl. On other occasions, however, responsiveness withn the dialog is fine.
Thus, even after restarting JAWS and/or rebooting the computer, the problem doesn't seem to be 100% reproducible.
I'm out of ideas.
Thanks anyway for previous suggestions. Maybe I'll have to send this problem along to the JAWS developers to see if I can interest them in the problem (although I'm not sure if the problem can be reproduced).
-- Pete
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Time to isolate things in order to get a handle on what's happening:
- Right-click on the taskbar, choose Task Manager
- In Task Manager, click on the Processes tab.
- In the Processes tab, click on the User Name panel to easily see the
processes that are active in the current user's profile.
- Highlight a process with the current user's name in the User Name
column and click on the End Process button on the lower right.
This will de-activate that background process, freeing up resources.
The only process you should not end is explorer.exe. Anything else running in the current user's name can be ended and rebooting Windows will bring it back.
After doing the above, start up your pgmusic program and go about the usual that you do with it and JAWS.
If the CPU usage problem does not occur over a few days time, we will then have to talk about how to go about isolating which of the background programs may be the culprit here.
--Mac
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Mac,
Thanks for your instructions and ideas.
I went through the running applic aplications in the Task Manager several times - First iteration killing processes I started and/or were in my Startup folder. No luck. Next, I went through and killed applications which I thought might impact the system. I looked up most of the app names on the net to see what they did...Nothing strange was there. Finally, I killed so many things that the computer rebooted. Still, this dialog is a problem with JAWS.
Then I installed the demo from your web site (v. 2007?) and the Roland/Edirol synth on my wife's XP Media Center laptop to see if I could reproduce the problem with JAWS and this dialog. Amazingly, everything worked fine.
One other strange thing on my system (which no one seems to be able to reproduce and was not reproducible on my wife's system) - When I hit Alt+Control+D to bring up the Master Volume settings on my system, nothing happens. I've never had this work on my system despite reinstalling BIAB several times. I don't know if this is somehow related.
I'm wondering what BIAB and/or the system is trying to do when this DXi Synth Settings dialog is brought up. I don't think any other window pops up. What other processing is trying to happen here? If the synth is installed, playing songs and navigating through songs works fine. It's just opening this dialog that seems to be the problem, and only on my system.
I wonder if there is some conflict with my sound cards. I have a EMU 0202 USB for BIAB output (using ASIO drivers), and a SB Live USB sound device for JAWS and Windows default sounds. I don't think that shold be a problem.
If I can't reproduce this problelm on other systems I guess that points to something very strange on my system, but I can't understand what it could be.
Oh yes, my other system specs are 2.6 GHz processor, 1.25 GB RAM, XP Pro SP3. So, that shouldn't be a problem.
We might have to throw up our hands.
Thanks anyway for all your advice and suggestions. We sure gave this a good shot!
-- Pete
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I think there is a possibility that you may have a popup window hiding behing the main BIAB window.
Maybe you should try hitting TAB next time and see what's behind the main window. It may be a window waiting for a response from you -- only it is hidden.
BTW -- I am not affiliated with pgmusic, I'm just a guy who loves using their products and hang around here a lot (grin).
--Mac
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Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: VST3 Plugin Support
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