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Quote:
Probably for another thread but.....
Quote:
John mentioned that he uses harmony processing for live performance. I can understand that but then I have to ask about the listeners. Are they expecting vocal harmonies from a solo artist?
I never quite read this take in any of your posts however I now feel that you are among those elitists that look down upon any of us here playing live with RB or BIAB.You don't totally say that but it sure implies it. If harmonies from a machine are not appropriate from a soloist why would backing tracks be any more appropriate?
Feel free to comment but I'm not going to debate this in Eddie's thread.
John quoted me (the embedded quote).
My question was an honest question, not intended to be 'elitist' in any way.
Let me provide a bit of background perspective.
When I have heard the harmony vocals that have been done by TC Electronic or Digitech Vocalist processing, they nearly always sound processed and robotic to me.
Many times, it's because it is vocal harmonies that never existed in the original popular recording.
As to backing tracks, RB has changed this up quite a bit. Can be very convincing and non distracting to my ear, because, well, they have been played live at least at some point and much of the nuance in a real live performance is captured in the recording.
So, my question to you one-man-band live show guys: Do you feel your audiences, who have not heard you before, expect to have vocal harmonies when there's only one of you showing up? The answer must be 'yes' or you wouldn't go through the bother.
Again, not intended to be elitist. Just wondering about the perspective of a new audience. Have you ever asked the person running the venue, etc.?
To answer John's question in the quote at the next obvious 'level' of playback tracks - when does one cross the line and just play pre-recorded everything?
I guess it comes down to what the audience expects in a live performance. If I see a guy show up with a guitar and a mic, my expectation is to hear a guy and a guitar.
To me, the vocals are the most personal part of a singing act. There is something odd that gets under my skin when I hear processed harmonies. To my ear and sentiment, it is more distracting than a BGV that might have been there for a recording, but is not present for a live performance. Is that elitist or looking down my nose?
If most feel that way, I'll not mention it again in these threads. I just wonder if more harm than good is being done with some of these tools that are available.
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There is the wow factor.
Go into any large place that sells gear and look at it. Hazers, Foggers, lasers, parabolic lights/PAR cans use of projectors, harmony boxes, and then make a production.
Anything that makes people stop and listen and smile is good.
Again, the average user listener is to as critical as you are, that sounds ok, it's good.
I'm thinking about finding someone to use my gear with the production/lighting/effects and backing tracks from me. If I could get the ambition.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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<RANT>
I think the answer is going to depend on the artist and presentation. Some people use (or overuse) a sound--others own it. The listener is also a factor, of course.
James Taylor and his famous Revox A-77 open-reel tape deck come to mind. He has always had backup vocals as a part of his sound. But there are two completely different things. One is the tight harmonies that he creates with his own voice, uses for some of his album recordings, and still sometimes uses as a novelty on stage. It is obviously contrived, but completely accepted. The other is the beautiful ensemble sound he gets with small vocal ensembles. Both have a place and no one questions their validity. He has taken each and made them an integral part of his sound.
But you are talking about processed sound. A great example is Phil Collins. We have all heard chorus used to death on vocals and guitars. Mr. Collins has taken it and made it his own. Most people don't even recognize it as an effect--they just know instantly when Phil is singing.
I think it comes down to taste and creativity. Robot sounds probably aren't appropriate in a lot of pop music except as a novelty, or if an arrangement has been created in which they make sense. To me it comes down to the credibility of the artist. The average listener can't distinguish good MIDI instruments from the real thing. If a piece is properly mixed and skilfully performed I don't think that listener is going to be any more critical about the vocals. He/she may realize that they have a characteristic sound, but not be able to identify it any further.
On the other hand, if you're talking about a fractious bunch of, shall we say, persnickety alter kackers such as are sometimes found on music software fora, all bets are off. It's one reason I don't present more of my music here. I make music for my and my audiences' pleasure, not to be hypercritically deconstructed by jaded pros. I have fun making it and my fans seem to like it. To the detractors I say, if they can't take a joke, freak 'em.
</RANT>
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Besides playing in a couple of bands I do a solo act with backing tracks. The backing tracks focus on jazz standards , and smooth jazz with a few pop tunes. I play a Synthophone and do some vocals. I have had the most success playing background rather than as a featured artist at a concert, although I have done some Senior citizens homes and concert in the park things. Variety is the thing that keeps me alive, so I am constantly looking for a bigger song list, more instrument variation and ensemble sounds. I recently bought a TC Helicon Voice Live Touch. At this point I have only done some experimentation. I can see the potential although it will probably see limited use. I think this will be a nice tool if it isn't over used. A really cool feature is it's ability to follow an MP3 that can be inputed via an aux input.That is nice because I don't play a chord instrument or have another player to input. It does a nice job of simple harmony especially 1 added voice and in some cases 2. The octaves added can fatten up a 2 part harmony very nicely too. So far I can see using this selectively to add a little spice to some songs. If it's over done than ...well it will sound overdone. If the harmony and or effects sounds synthesized it's because they are. The trick of course is to sound as credible as possible. In the pop world today many of the vocalists use effects that sound somewhat abnormal. I'm not saying it's bad just different. So if it's tastefully done so be it. It's all a matter of personal preference. It's really the same thing I face with playing the Synthophone. I am trying to shoot for good emulations of the different instruments I play. Some I do real well while others might be questionable. Is it entirely necessary that I play a perfect Trombone or Trumpet sound? I don't think so as long as the music is performed well generally people could care less what instrument patch you use. I could be doing a really nice flute emulation and people still can and do say "Nice Sax" . That's because they see a Saxophone and hear with their eyes. I just read your post and thought I'd throw my 2 cents worth in since I haven't posted in a long time. www.saxmagic.net
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Quote:
So, my question to you one-man-band live show guys: Do you feel your audiences, who have not heard you before, expect to have vocal harmonies when there's only one of you showing up? The answer must be 'yes' or you wouldn't go through the bother.
Again, not intended to be elitist. Just wondering about the perspective of a new audience. Have you ever asked the person running the venue, etc.?
To answer John's question in the quote at the next obvious 'level' of playback tracks - when does one cross the line and just play pre-recorded everything?
I guess it comes down to what the audience expects in a live performance. If I see a guy show up with a guitar and a mic, my expectation is to hear a guy and a guitar.
To me, the vocals are the most personal part of a singing act. There is something odd that gets under my skin when I hear processed harmonies. To my ear and sentiment, it is more distracting than a BGV that might have been there for a recording, but is not present for a live performance. Is that elitist or looking down my nose?
If most feel that way, I'll not mention it again in these threads. I just wonder if more harm than good is being done with some of these tools that are available.
More than one question here but I'll answer of course from my perspective only.
Question #1.
1st of all I never bill myself as a one-man band, I bill myself as a single act with professional self made assisting backing tracks. One-man band brings to mind the guy on the street (some pretty good) that bangs a drum with his feet, plays banjo with his hands and crashes cymbals with his knees.
The answer to this question is not what you expected, it is "no" as like you (and I) they expect to hear a singer behind an accompanying instrument playing some original material of which they have no clue as to the beat, melody and lyric but are pleasantly surprised when they hear music they can dance or sing along to instead. Plus all musicians I know never, never consider it a "bother" to try and enhance their act in anyway they can. So the way I see it is that spot harmonies here and there on certain songs are just some unexpected icing on the cake.
Question #2.
re: Asking the person running the venue . . . he or she know what to expect from me long before I start setting up, no surprises as I make sure they know what I do before the gig is booked.
re: What the audience expects? . . . some still don't know what expect from a single act and you do get a few heads to turn away from small conversations when they first hear the backing instruments and some harmonies. But most audiences these days are pretty savvy regarding backing tracks and I dare say some are indeed starting to expect them from a solo performer.
Question #3.
When does one cross the line and play re-recorded everything? . . . when he/she is a DJ and/or does karaoke.
Question #4.
re: Processed harmonies? . . . I too think if they are over used they loose the effect. Regarding you or anyone else looking down your nose with an elitist attitude, only the "nose down lookers" can answer that question. 
Question #5.
re: More harm than good? . . . only the audiences can answer this question but at the risk of being redundant I too feel when they are overdone they become more harm than good. It is like any part of a musical performance you have to be able to read your audience to learn just what is working and what isn't.
Later,
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Just as with the ubiquitous guitar, there will be many users and a few actual virtuosos will emerge. There will be the few who work to find something new and exciting to do with the Harmony box, and may just take it to an entirely different place than the "one man band" aspect. Time will tell.
Imagine what might ensue if a Bobby McFerrin were to use one...
--Mac
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I think a lot of this boils down to the insecurities of the performer. I hear this all the time in songs that people post too. The vocals and/or the lead instrument are mixed too low primarily because the person doesn't have enough confidence in their singing/playing to put themselves right out front and 'in your face' like the pro's do. Listen to a Sinatra or Bird recording. The vocal and sax alone are mixed louder than the whole band. Adding a lot of other tracks and processing the vocal with harmonies covers up a lot of sins.
It's scary to simply sing by yourself with some reverb and that's it with a simple accompaniment. I've fallen prey to that as well when I get called to do some solo piano stuff. This just happened a month ago on a big band gig for an 80th birthday party. I was paid an extra $75 to show up an hour early to do some solo piano Real Book standards prior to the band starting. This meant I'm playing for all the other players that are coming in and setting up as well as the audience. Just the audience alone doesn't bother me, I've done it before but playing solo while the band members are coming in caused me some distress bacause a few of them are total Hollywood studio pros who've worked with some of the best pianists in LA and I'm pretty good but I'm not in that class. No one is breaking my door down to book me for a film score session. It was hard to put out of my mind the thought that my playing probably sounds simple and even amateurish compared to the people they've recorded with. I know the truth is they don't care, a couple of the guys even said I sounded good but still....yeah, that's my insecurities there.
It would have been a whole lot easier for me to use my Korg arranger keyboard and play with the styles but it was booked as solo piano and it was an older crowd and I knew that's what they wanted.
A couple of times I felt like a bug on a plate.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Very interesting and somewhat diverse perspectives here. Thanks all for the input.
I'll highlight a few particular comments in the thread that I think sum up things nicely as good checks for whether to use any particular tool:
From John Conley's post: "Anything that makes people stop and listen and smile is good."
From Mac's post: "There will be the few who work to find something new and exciting to do with the Harmony box, and may just take it to an entirely different place than the "one man band" aspect."
From Danny's post: "It is like any part of a musical performance you have to be able to read your audience to learn just what is working and what isn't.
"
From Ryszard's post: "If a piece is properly mixed and skilfully performed I don't think that listener is going to be any more critical about the vocals."
From Bob Hunt's post: "The trick of course is to sound as credible as possible."
I'll try to keep my written comments on this to myself from this point on. Call me out on this one if I slip up - permission granted.
Edit to say that I was composing this post at the same time as jazzmammal. His quote: "At times I've felt like a bug on a plate." How true for me, and probably anyone who has the nerve to perform in public.
Last edited by rockstar_not; 10/11/11 12:48 PM.
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Think of musical possibilities as a circle. No matter what you do or how you do it, it's somewhere on the circle.
And no matter where you are on the circle, there's somebody exactly opposite you who hates what you do...and somebody very close to you on the circle who likes what you're doing.
So, no matter where you are on the circle You can't please everybody. If you try to move to a more advantageous spot on the circle, that just introduces a whole new group that's diametrically opposed to what you do and a whole new group on your side of the circle that likes what you do.
All you can do is find a comfortable spot on the circle, then let the chips fall where they may.
And I predict that the chips will fall more according to the way you WORK your paradigm than according to the paradigm itself.
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Quote:
I'll try to keep my written comments on this to myself from this point on. Call me out on this one if I slip up - permission granted.
Edit to say that I was composing this post at the same time as jazzmammal. His quote: "At times I've felt like a bug on a plate." How true for me, and probably anyone who has the nerve to perform in public.
and likewise anyone who has the nerve to speak his mind in a public forum.
Nobody should have to censor his opinion as long as it is presented as an opinion, and not as absolute truth.
Likewise, freedom of speech is a two way street. one person is free to speak frankly, and another is free to offer a frank rebuttal.
Only in this way does a forum reach its true potential: the active exchange of ideas among intelligent participants. It's normal for smart people to form differing opinions on the same data. Open discussion helps us all to rise above our own limited vision and see what others are seeing.... and also share with others what we are seeing.
Again, its a two way street.
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Quote:
... Adding a lot of other tracks and processing the vocal with harmonies covers up a lot of sins.
...
No it don't.
--Mac
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