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excellent points all, bob. another thing: i loved Barbara Streisand's nose. it was part of her character, who she was. like you said in another topic...zak brown isn't making it on his good looks, he's got talent. we seem to live in a "cookie cutter society" where nobody wants/dares to be different.
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Great discussion both, emotional and analytical, with good points made by all regardless of your viewpoint.
An artist by profession,I view myself as primarily a song writer/hobbyist with no real desire to perform on stage or have a singing career. More of an idea man.
I would just like to be able to play with words and music like I do with pixels and paint.
However it would be cool to be able to present my songs in a professional sounding manner with the hopes of at least getting them listened to after the first 3 bars, especially if they are submitted to a real talent for possible use.
If they could sound close to the person presented to that just might make the difference between acceptance and rejection.
I can live with sounding like me and do enjoy trying to improve my vocals, many times at the expense of much needed sleep.
But it would be nice if Elvis, Alan Jackson or Bobby D could drop by for a jam when needed.
Trying to do this on a semi retired artists income is what led me to BIAB, Melodyne and thinking about vocal modeling/mimic programs.
Figured if they can do it with realtrack instruments, why not with realtrack vocals.
A lot more variables but seems doable?
Maybe the elastic feature would make it easier?
Seems like I saw some program which had male and female computer singers (Adam and Eva?), maybe by Sony?
I'm constantly amazed at the knowledge and results y'all bring to these forums.
The verbal jousting is very punny, fun intended.
Keep it up, it enriches us all.
Carkins
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Quote:
http://www.celemony.com/cms/index.php?id=videos#top
The video is the one that's named " What does a Stone Sound like"
Is this guy from Mars?  He is certainly not entirely human... 
simply marvelous. 
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Quote:
Can you imagine artists like Bob Dylan and Willie Nelson in the hands of todays producers? Auto Tune would "fix" their voices and lose all of the character of the artist!
We expected Dylan and Nelson to sing out of tune and have cracks in their voices. Obviously the public was okay with that. We knew who they were in the first line of the song and we wanted to hear more.
Music is becoming too "sanitized" and layered by our electronic toys.
It makes me think of the line out of the old Neil Young song "Union Man".
"Live music is better! Bumper stickers should be issued!" 
Bob,
You haven't been keeping up with what the cool kids listen to these days. There are plenty of non-processed, non-perfect stars out there. To name a few off the top of my head:
Bon Iver
Iron & Wine
Mumford & Sons
Sufjan Stevens
Fleet Foxes
Coldplay
etc.
Google them. You'll hear what I mean.
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BTW, the cool sideways triangle formed by the bands I named off the top of my head was not done intentionally - I noticed that after I posted.
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Quote:
Quote:
http://www.celemony.com/cms/index.php?id=videos#top
The video is the one that's named " What does a Stone Sound like"
Is this guy from Mars? He is certainly not entirely human...
simply marvelous.
I see the exact opposite there: This wonderful man is more human than most of us.
At one time, the term used might have been, "Renaissance Man", and to my way of thinking such still effectively defines both the man and his approach.
He is actually following in the footsteps of others that have made the kind of discoveries that can only be described as fundamentally changing our meager abilities to understand and thus deal with the situation in which we find ourselves. Just like Maxwell, Bohr, Einstein, etc. I see amazing similarities in approach here.
A young Einstein used to sit and drink wine with physicists and mathematecians and discuss the ramifications of the then emerging atomic theory long into the night, just as this fellow describes sitting around drinking Ouzo with his friends and discussing what a stone would sound like. Whoa. A session like that must have been is the kind of stuff that lights my fire as well.
I also again see the situation we describe in our times as, "thinking outside the box," with that "box" having the common denominator of the accepted approach, the academic situation where many are taught not what they can do, but sadly what they canNOT do. This fellow was not hampered by having been subjected to the rigid conformity of the university, he was just investigating something that was interesting to him. He is literally yet another Amateur Scientist, who, since the word "Amateur" is derived from "Love" and "Craft" (Fr.), his Love of the Craft drives the project at hand. Not looking for recognition, fame, fortune or any of that worldly guff, but rather simply having fun discovering the spine of the universe (universe = literally, "one word") that God has wrought.
Seek and Ye Shall Find.
Ask and the door shall be opened.
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings.
The pursuit of excellence should be seen as the ultimate reason we were created IMO, and that is a human, not a "Martian" (Martians? Have you ever seen any?) trait.
The kind of Amateur Engineer who can see the spine of a mathematical relationship as a real 3D entity and then proceed to model it on a toilet paper tube.
That's my kind of human being.
After watching that video (thanks for the pointer BTW!) I would like to spend some time with the fellow.
And I know beforehand that we'd get along superbly.
Or, in the words of our very own Renaissance Man and CEO of PGMusic, we would Have Fun together...
--Mac
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carkins, The real tracks analogy is entirely different than recording 'real track vocals' where words would be involved. Its the dynamic changes to the 'voice print' you refer to in your first post, due to different words, that makes this nearly impossible without it sounding mechanical and artificial. Alan Jackson, you should be able to at least ape his twang. Just try it. Practice it. I'm from Michigan, with perhaps a strong midwestern accent, but nobody ever accused me that I was from the south. However, I'm not afraid to pretend that with my voice when the song calls for it. No it's not Alan Jackson, but it sounds much more like him than some computer algorithm would. Here's a song I wrote and recorded this past February as part of the February Album Writing Month called 'Non-Hippie from Boulder'. http://fawm.org/songs/11075/Hurry recorded guitar and vox 1 at the same time, added doubled vox for a chorus, then added bass. Contrast that with something that's more my natural voice, again recorded this past February Album Writing Month, similar instrumentation with little care of post production and processing. http://fawm.org/songs/12021/I have a nasally thing going on no matter what. That's my voice. -Scott
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We are stuck with the sinus cavities we were born with, Scott.
Darn those lucky ones who were born with sinus cavities that resonate like a cathedral...
--Mac
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Carkins, As a youngster, then into early hi-school had a nice Soprano voice. I was soloist many times. Had some amount of training in the choirs. traveling here there and about the area. Then puberty hit, and things changed as we all know. Then in military started smoking..dumb move. Quit about 15 years later due to per-cancerous growths on my larynx, had surgery. Yes I quit cold. Bad hay fever thru the years, very little singing. About 8 years ago got into the Yamaha keyboards. Never planned at all to gig, but with encouragement from a couple of friends on another forum started this at senior centers, with some degree of success.(Surprised me). Think the "entertainer part of the gig came out first. Never knew what this was until sitting in the spotlight, which goes against my nature. Anyway instrumentals are great, but folks like vocals, so started with couple, then added a few more. Then as Trax mentioned above, and experience recording a true artist learned that the voice is an instrument and it needs practice, hours and hours. I went from crappy to "almost acceptable" and with FX in the keyboard "almost decent". In this process learned of a word called "Formant" this is crucial to a singer. My simple definition is its your voice, but the more complex is below. After learning about this, and trying to use the Yamaha on board Harmonizer learned a great deal more about the formant thing, so anyway think so. Mind went back to choir days, also my daughter gave me a set of Voice lessons On DVDs. The lessons were very helpful reminder and also new information. After the wordy part above: https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp...l=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=53103a27a694d4e3&biw=1207&bih=771 Wiki version. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FormantLearned mic control,levels, FX(electronic part) was crucial. Mic usage, distance, your personal vocal levels crucial. Then for live harmonizer in Yamaha, at least two crucial things. First eliminating feedback as much as possible, my Samson Q7's seemed to work nicely. And another important one was not to "force" your voice for standard songs. Oldies, modern pop, country etc. But back to Trax, I personally need several weeks of practice regularly to just get back to acceptable voice. No coffee or breakfast yet, so wordy. Hope the formant part help you. Seeker
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Chest voice.
Head voice.
Yodel.
Bel Canto
Folk
Take your pick.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Expert
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Mac,I bet you could go over and spend an afternoon and have a blast with him.
What I thought was so neat about Peter Neubäcker, Meodyne's creator, was his ability to see sound in 3 dimensions( the 3d model of one note as an example). Everything I see in the representation of sound has been in 2 dimensions, a sine wave as an example. This thread dealing with the voice will have to have the 3 d approach whenever anyone plans augment vocals or any other sound for that matter. IMHO, someone would have to do the equivalent of a DNA sequencing of a persons voice to even start to understand these subtleties that make us , us.
I think that instead of becoming someone else s voice, there are many like me that would love to sing and have a pleasing voice but are not born with that ability. TC Helicon boxes come fairly close but at almost $3000, ouch.
The interesting thing about changing voices for me would be the overdubs for audio books and children books to make the characters come alive, allowing authors to also be the voices of the characters.
Wyndham
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Quote:
I also again see the situation we describe in our times as, "thinking outside the box," with that "box" having the common denominator of the accepted approach, the academic situation where many are taught not what they can do, but sadly what they canNOT do. This fellow was not hampered by having been subjected to the rigid conformity of the university, he was just investigating something that was interesting to him. He is literally yet another Amateur Scientist, who, since the word "Amateur" is derived from "Love" and "Craft" (Fr.), his Love of the Craft drives the project at hand. Not looking for recognition, fame, fortune or any of that worldly guff, but rather simply having fun discovering the spine of the universe (universe = literally, "one word") that God has wrought.
I only quoted a small portion of your post to save space, but your entire post was very well stated Mac. I agree 100%
As I watched the video, I thought "I can't wait to hear what Mac has to say about this."
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Journeyman
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rockstar_not...urbanfolkstar_definitely! Good job singing on your insightful and humorous slices of life. My kinda music. http://www.carlkocich.com/Music.htmlseeker...interesting (though over my head technically at times) read about formant. However this led me to investigate their use further in my Melodyne Editor program and discovered how changing them can really fine tune a sound to get it just right where the pitch tool didn't quite do it. Still new to Melodyne (truly amazing program) and have yet to avoid the occasional robotic,tekno slur often introduced when adjusting or moving a word or syllable. Until I get that figured out I find I'm better off re-recording and re-recording (etc. etc. etc.) that section and focusing on getting it right in that way. Actually surprising myself at times, so will definitely view my voice as "an instrument" to be practiced and hopefully improved on ...and accepted for what it is. Thanks again to all for the continued info,inspiration and insight. And remember....Life Is Always Plan B Carkins
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Despite the chorus of protestation to the contrary, we are closer than you know to being able to emulate other voices using our own as a controller. The technology exists and is already in use. (Interestingly, the Roland VP-550 choir emulator to which I alluded in my original post has been discontinued. I suspect that it will become a highly-sought-after collectible if it hasn't already.) As always, I am at a loss to explain (but highly entertained by) those who choose to respond by telling the OP why he should not do what he wants to. This is particularly amusing coming from BIAB users. The man wants to be able to do exactly the same thing BIAB does, but with vocals, i.e., create and perform songs with instruments which he doesn't have or can't play on his own. Is anyone not clear on this? 
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Quote:
The man wants to be able to do exactly the same thing BIAB does, but with vocals, i.e., create and perform songs with instruments which he doesn't have or can't play on his own. Is anyone not clear on this?
It's not with instruments he doesn't have (he has a voice) and if he can't play it, none of the mentioned tools are going to help. So I guess I'm not clear on this..
From that Roland VP-550 brochure -
"Don’t worry if you’re a horrible vocalist. In the studio environment, you can route vocal audio tracks (from your group’s more-accomplished singers) to the ¼ inch inputs, play harmony parts on the keyboard, and then record the vocal harmonies from the VP-550 back into your recording session."
Notice how they state in a sales brochure it is not going to fix your bad singing.
Also, I asked a question - Why would you want to sound like someone else? (his words - sound like someone else) If he just wants to for fun; fine, best of luck, have fun. If he wants to for an effect; cool.
If he thinks it's going to make him sell or sound 'better', I disagree. There's plenty of cookie-cutter stuff available already.
Make your sound your own. (And own it) Copying someone elses sound is kinda like being a cover band IMO.
Last edited by rharv; 11/13/11 06:53 AM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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I do agree some of the technology has come a long way. Sounding male/female is available and pretty well done in a lot of harmonizers. Tuning has come a long way too, pretty accurate if not overdone.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Just to clarify, I consider myself a song writer, not a singer.
It's a hobby, not a profession, something I enjoy, have fun with and use it to try to please and amuse others.
Would be nice to be able to sing like a pro but am more concerned with getting my musical paintings on audio canvas so to speak in the best, most affordable way I can.
If one comes out well enough that I think I could submit to a real performer, so be it, but not my main priority.
Fun is priority One.
Hence my desire for a BIAB of voices to choose from just as I choose the colors in my artwork.
Not trying to put something over, just trying to put something out.
Good to see I've stirred up some passions out there on all sides of the coin.
And the band played on....
Have a great one.
Carkins
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If it's just for fun, I wish you luck. I don't think we're there yet where you can sound like Elvis or Sinatra at will, but with some tuning and EQ most voices can be made acceptable. Good luck with the song writing; I wish you well on that endeavor too.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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