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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 148
Apprentice
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OP
Apprentice
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 148 |
Hi
As you all know biab is excellent to work on your musical ideas, it has a pretty good quality of sound, RT, RD, tempo and key change features and all the rest of it... For mixing and mastering RB is the tool. However, after having imported the song in RB, it seems to me that the quality of the sound is not as good as it was in biab. I am aware the the mastering process can do a lot to the quality of the sound, adding some reverb to the vocal etc, but what I am talking about is comparing the dry sound from biab and RB. Does biab produce better sound quality, or is it just me?
Thanks
Jan
JROM
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815 |
Quote:
but what I am talking about is comparing the dry sound from biab and RB. Does biab produce better sound quality, or is it just me?
Nope, I noticed the very same thing. I tend to export wav files directly from BIAB into Sonar because of that. I'll use RB to add sections of other instruments and then export those, too.
Probably PG Music will come back and say that they are the same wav files, so they can't sound better in BIAB than in RB, but I am going to have to agree with your observation.
Kevin
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
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Veteran
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Differences in Gain Structure is the likely culprit.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 301
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 301 |
Quote:
Differences in Gain Structure is the likely culprit.
Nail on the head!
The gain does tend differ from BIAB to RB but tweak em up an you're good as new..... Then you can add your FX etc.
Dave.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,697
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This question comes up regularly. You have to understand the studio recording process completely. When you open up another program, that program has it's own settings, synths, defaults etc. If you load in a midi file from Biab, the other program may be set up with a different synth. It may have default effects plugins active, all that kind of thing. If you're still convinced there's a difference (there isn't) then take just one track, save it in Biab and open it in RB. Both Biab and RB have the ability to insert DXi plugs at the output stage. If they're different in both programs, there's the culprit. Check all those things especially the Gain like Mac said. Just a couple of db difference in gain will fool you into thinking the louder track sounds better.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 31
Enthusiast
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Enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 31 |
I think Mac is right, I have noticed a difference as well, and it is the gain in biab is louder than Realband. It is a fact that something louder is perceived as "better".
Quadcore 6600 Windows 7-4 gig mem
Run HomeAlone Studio
Sonar 8.5 soon to be Sonar X1
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
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Veteran
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Not just perceived "louder".
Gain Staging is an important thing.
If the amplitude of the signal is down from where it was in BIAB, it will actually have less average power to it. This is measurable.
RealBand sounds "different" when you load the file because RealBand starts out with all Volume Faders for each track set to 90. By design. You must set about remixing the tracks in RealBand.
--Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 148
Apprentice
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OP
Apprentice
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 148 |
Thanks all. Appreciate your inputs. I understand that programs has its own settings, which may explain the difference in the sound, only problem though is regardless of any tweakings made, it seems that the rather good initial quality from biab cannot be obtained in RB. Another thing I have noticed is that when recording in RB the input gain should be so much higher than in biab (potential for more noise). Could be a related issue.
Maybe PG Music could comment on that one.
Thanks again
Jan
JROM
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
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Quote:
... it seems that the rather good initial quality from biab cannot be obtained in RB.
That is certainly not the case here. My soundcard settings are normalized, though. "What goes in is what comes out" as regards amplitude at 1KHz.
However, .mgu or .sgu files made in BIAB do indeed sound different when first opened up in RB here. The reason is that each track was sent from BIAB at a certain level as set in the BIAB controls. But when opened in RB, the default for each track is set at the same place. This in itself creates a gain staging change that may or may not be apparent, depending upon a few other things such as the level of the track originally, the level of the other tracks comes into play also as digital audio is additive in nature, even despite the 32 bit mix engine.
Quote:
Another thing I have noticed is that when recording in RB the input gain should be so much higher than in biab (potential for more noise). Could be a related issue.
This is a good clue. Tells me that there must be something different about your soundcard's mixer applet settings, most likely in the Record properties -- may also have to do with how the Prefs are set up in the two different programs, too. Not knowing the brand and model of soundcard you have, I cannot comment further. But that should not be happening if your system and host programs are properly set up. Does not happen here. More info may get you more answers as to how to go about ironing that out.
--Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,448
Veteran
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Mac,
When saving a song in BIAB (with volume settings saved) with a view to re-opening it in Real Band, what is your suggestion for the average volume settings of BIAB? Do you think a higher setting (e.g 115 to 120) is better that a setting in the 80s or 90s?
Cheers,
Keith
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
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Veteran
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It depends upon the song and its mix, Keith.
Too many variables involved with which style, volume settings that may be imbedded in a style, use of RealTracks and which ones, genre, MIDI synth, etc. etc. etc.
I like to make it sound as good as I can get it sound in BIAB.
I also like to do the same once its in RealBand, of course.
If a particular audio track is too low in amplitude, I take a look at it first in the graphic waveform view to verify that and if it is, I may apply the older GainChange effect found in the File menu to raise its amplitude destructively. But keep it under the zero dB fullscale mark, of course. A good rule of thumb for multiracks at 16/44.1 or 24/44.1 is to have the thing hovering around the -6dB mark, which is a "musical" place to be and allows for mixing of tracks a little easier IMO. Each track hovering at -6dB "in the raw". Then I will use the mixer Fader for the track with a bit more safety.
--Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Hi Mac,
Thanks for your usual well explained response. I'll do some experimenting.
Cheers,
Keith
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