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Last edited by jford; 08/10/12 10:51 AM.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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Thanks, John, quite interesting.
Stan
Cornet Curmudgeon
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Nice comparison John. Thanks for all of that work! Some really nice ones there, very subtle differences. Did I notice some polyphony issues where some notes are being cut off? I know that in the NI Alicia Keys and in TruePianos, I set polyphony quite high...usually at 256.
Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2026, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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Hi John,
What a brilliant idea! Thank you heaps for doing this. It must have taken ages. I'm listening my way through the samples right now!
Regards,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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John - That is is so kind of you. Many Thanks indeed: another Gold Medal for the US... Did you see the helpful link which DeltaGolf just put on the 'Mute Super-Tracks' thread: http://www.purgatorycreek.com/documents/25.html It's a little dated (2009) but very interesting. It's so helpful to have comparisons done with real BIAB-comping tho. I continue to be impressed with Modartt's Pianoteq 4. Do you know that one? Many Thanks again - Best - Andy
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John,
what a value adder you are to the forum!
Considering how often people ask about the various soft synths, this comparative sample is a great resource! Thanks for taking time to create such a comprehensive presentation!
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Thanks for the comments. It actually didn't take too much time...swap out synth, render to wav with different name, rinse, repeat. Then convert to MP3, upload, etc.
Anyway, there really are subtle differences between each piano, which means you need to figure out which one sits best in a mix.
I don't know of PianoTeq; maybe someone can post something similar. I just used the synths I have on my computer. I would have posted some of the other True Pianos, but it kept resetting to the default, so I moved along.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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Thanks for taking the time to do that, John.
Was anyone else surprised how well the Coyote Wavetable DXi stood up to some pretty heavyweight competition?
ROG.
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Amazing, John -- thanks so much. And, yeah, the differences are subtle but noticeable. And, I agree, ROG -- both the Coyote synths do at least keep close to the more expensive instruments.
Best, Tom SmithWin10/64 • i7-8700K • 24 GB RAM BIAB 2026 • Reaper 7.57 • Izotope MPS AKG C1000S • IK iRig I/O Pro
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Hi John - I'm embarrassed to ask after all your work, but it would be so useful to hear PianoTek 4 using your same song. It is hard to compare VSTi's with different midi inputs, I find. And your set is much the most useful because it has a BIAB ST input. If you could find a few minutes, you can download the trial here: http://www.pianoteq.com/tryThe D4 Classical patch is the default, and that would be fine for the comparison, I think. It's a bit of a pain because the trial version expires after 20 minutes, and then you have to re-install it (no need to uninstall first, though). Do tell me to f-off if you think this is just too cheeky after all your efforts! Thanks John - Best - Andy
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Quote:
Thanks for the comments. It actually didn't take too much time...swap out synth, render to wav with different name, rinse, repeat. Then convert to MP3, upload, etc.
Anyway, there really are subtle differences between each piano, which means you need to figure out which one sits best in a mix.
I don't know of PianoTeq; maybe someone can post something similar. I just used the synths I have on my computer. I would have posted some of the other True Pianos, but it kept resetting to the default, so I moved along.
My thanks too John. Just curious though. Since mp3 files obviously contain much less data than wav (or CD quality files) I'm just curious how much "differention" YOU think is lost between your original files and the mp3s you posted here.
You are the only one who can possibly make that comparison so it would be really interesting to hear your views.
(NOTE: Many people supposedly can't tell the difference between MPs and CDs and I've never seen a "double blind, placebo controlled" study on that subject!!!)
(-:
Jim
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Impressive amount of software John! Yes, some differences amongst the pianos, Coyote wavetable definitely not good, in a mix or by itself. most of the rest of them probably can't hear much difference in a mix. Thanks for posting that.
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I have a 4 part piano track that I'll be using for a backup. The piano is the only instrument so I want the quality to be the best I can make it with my equipment, knowledge, etc.. I compared the Ketron SD2 and Aria GPO Steinway grand and the SD2 won, IMO. Initially, I had forgotten to check the dxi box in the midi driver window, but after I checked it, the sound was degraded somewhat. This sure was a surprise to me.
Stan
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If you check "Use DXi" then whatever you hear should be being made by the DXi/VSTi software synthesizer you have invoked there, and you will NOT hear the SD2...
And, yes, the sound would be degraded because it ain't the same piano.
--Mac
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Quote:
And, yes, the sound would be degraded because it ain't the same piano.
--Mac
Well, my point is, even if I use the the GPO Aria DXi, the Ketron sd2 sounds better. In other words, in this instance it's better than that particular soft synth. I've heard some soft synths that sound better than the sd2, but not very many. I thought that perhaps a Steinway would sound better than the Ketron acoustic piano--not this time though.
Stan
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Stan, it's nothing to do with the fact it's a Steinway sample. The $40 Forte DXi uses a Steinway sample too. You really think just because 10 completely different synths happen to use a Steinway sample they're all going to sound the same? Wow. It's how large is that sample, how many layers, how was it recorded, how is it mapped across the keyboard, the mic placement, what controls work with it? Man, I could go on and on.
Bob
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Compare the cost, that typically but not always is also a way to conpare the sample.
--Mac
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Sorry, guys but I can't do the exact same song with a different synth, as I didn't even save the original. I just ran through each synth, saved the resulting WAV/MP3, then quit BIAB.
I will say that the sound of the WAV (to my ears) was better than the MP3, but in the end, I suspect most people today will be listening to an MP3 version of a song anyway.
The other thing, as I believe Mac has pointed out previously, is that this gives the sound of the piano itself. I did it so the piano wouldn't get lost in a mix; however, when you place the piano in a mix, you want to make sure it sounds good in the mix. Sometimes that's not necessarily the best sounding solo piano..
When I have some time, I'll try to run the experiment a little more completely and scientifically and will definitely post back here.
And as others have pointed out, with SuperTracks, you are not limited to only the sound of the original instrument, as you are with RealTracks. I could have easily made the SuperTrack into any number of keyboards.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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I have played the piano since I was 7. My own we bought when I was kid, and hundreds and hundreds more that I have played in TV studios, churches, and Nursing Homes. I have 5 keyboards and one actual piano now. Each keyboard has from 2 to 20 pianos. I have an SD2, and a JV1010. Both have LOTS of pianos.
At the end of the day, I defy anyone in the audience who is not a LONG time piano player to say, "Gee that does not sound like a piano."
Heck I have at least a bass guitar or upright bass (I prefer the latter, but not much to give away here). And Drums. At least a trio. USUALLY a quartet. It gets in there, and when you use RealTracks it seems to sound pretty dang good.
In order to get true velocities with midi, it's sometimes going to be hard. If I play the melody, I use more oomph on that, just using whichever finger the melody is going to be best on. Usually my small finger.
So many times I want to order the whaaaambulance. Even I am ok with MOST of the pianos. Back in the FM days with synths sure, I could figure it out. Now, not so much. As Mac said recently, you are hearing midi instruments in almost every movie soundtrack. It gets so close you won't hire a full band to come in so the clarinet sounds ok. Dang clarinets are mostly annoying anyway, unless you have pros and they mix well, and have lots of time to rehearse. Then you get prima donnas who know better and don't like your score so they make it worse. You have no idea. Forget the drunk bass player in your trio, because that's annoying. Maybe PG music should release drunk tracks of each part.
Get on with it. You get nothing accomplished by futzing around with this and that, that's not music it's NIT picking.
Post us your work. If you've used this software, and have any workflow, ways of getting things laid out, this should NOT take longer than 15 to 30 minutes. Even the pieces my wife and I have played as a duo where I used 2 or 3 instruments behind us, have taken less than an hour to make. Usually 10 minutes.
The part of what WE do, requires some showmanship, and pizazz. You can't just deadpan 8 or 10 songs, not smile, engage the audience, and stare off like someone high. That's more important that the dang piano.
That said, if there's no piano in the room, I'd be against putting it in. A bass line when I'm playing the piano means I move up on the keyboard and stay off their notes. A drum is somewhat ubiquitous. But the piano would stand out if it's not there, and I often don't even use it when playing a horn. People will be looking around for the piano, because it's big and obvious. Like sticking in the cathedral pipe organ samples. Those would be used in movie soundtacks, and I bet you can contract some big firm and ask for EP Biggs on the Cantebury Cathedral pipe organ and get some sounds for 20k, and then use them in your upcoming movie.
John posted a whole bunch of pianos. But if we buried them in a backing track, added some a and b parts, changed up the piece and then posted it, you'd be hard pressed to go and say, GEE that's the 2.6 Gig Korean Grand piano played in Car-neggy hall, by Joe Blow, formally a horn player on a Friday night when he's only had one scotch. Sure. Really.
You can spend hundreds of hours, a whack of money, and your MOM won't know the free job from the expensive. And then you have RealTracks, a dog of a different colour.
I will put one caveat that I think is in order. You might notice it's different if I do it, or Mac does it, or Miles
Black does it. But that said, I'm back to the who cares part. I try to make music. I got the Ketron when I went 64 bit, I wanted to replace the VSC Dxi syth I was using with something better.
All in all my Korg now sounds best, because it's easiest on the arthritic fingers. One of them took a left turn and it hurts 24/7. So my big piano in the living room is played, but because it hurts, I play my Korg.
My 2 cents worth, which you probably will toss to join another in the centre of the capital of Italy. I want a Frank Sinatra real track. Either that or I put in my CD...Volare whoo whoo...never mind.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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