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Re: use RealTracks fiddle to play melody that i designate ? Matt Finley #173545 09/22/12 12:42 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,844 J JohnJohnJohn Veteran
JohnJohnJohn Veteran J Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,844	thanks Matt. interesting listening. its hard to compare the synths to the RealTracks though! I guess you'd use MIDI when 1) you want more control over what is being played or 2) no RealTrack meets your current needs? I downloaded and installed Coyote ForteDXi but cannot really figure out what to do next! can someone give me just a really brief instruction on how to use Coyote ForteDXi in one of my songs? Is there a quick way to convert my song (currently using RealTracks) to MIDI and then switch between Coyote WaveTable and Coyote ForteDXi so I can hear the difference?

Re: use RealTracks fiddle to play melody that i designate ? JohnJohnJohn #173546 09/22/12 12:48 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,844 J JohnJohnJohn Veteran
JohnJohnJohn Veteran J Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,844	oh and one more question...can you run a MIDI guitar track through Amplitude?

Re: use RealTracks fiddle to play melody that i designate ? JohnJohnJohn #173547 09/23/12 09:42 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 7,697 Redondo Beach, Ca. jazzmammal Veteran
jazzmammal Veteran Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 7,697 Redondo Beach, Ca.	Quote: well, honestly, I don't know! I know there is a computer involved and Windows 7 and recently BIAB! And I know whatever sound card I have plays music from games real nice. Beyond that I know nothing and suspect I have the most basic of MIDI capabilities. Ok, so now we're on to part two of your Biab education. The sound quality. First and foremost, Biab has no midi sounds, period. Not talking about Real Tracks here. Biab is a stand alone program that generates midi commands, not sound. Remember that, NOT SOUND. It seems like Biab is generating sound but it's not, it's generating midi commands. Where those midi commands go is entirely up to you. Right now you're telling Biab to use the most basic, worst sounding synth in the world, the Microsoft Wavetable. It's only used to generate the beeps, bloops, and other weird Windows sounds you hear when you do certain Windows functions or games. PG gives away two basic synths, the Roland VSC and the Coyote Wavetable. The VSC doesn't work on 64 bit systems so they made a deal with Coyote to modify the basic Windows Wavetable to work with Biab. Neither sounds that great but the Wavetable is definitely the worst of the two, they at least give a new customer something to play if they don't have better synths already. You need a real synth, John. This topic is probably the single most talked about thing on this forum. Do a search using words like "best synth" "Biab sounds" etc. No need for us to list all that yet again in this thread. Bob Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.

Re: use RealTracks fiddle to play melody that i designate ? jazzmammal #173548 09/23/12 10:32 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,844 J JohnJohnJohn Veteran
JohnJohnJohn Veteran J Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,844	is there a point at which MIDI rivals RealTracks? and all I'm referring to is quality/realism of the instrument sounds.

Re: use RealTracks fiddle to play melody that i designate ? JohnJohnJohn #173549 09/23/12 10:59 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,656 Wauconda DrDan Veteran
DrDan Veteran Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,656 Wauconda	Quote: is there a point at which MIDI rivals RealTracks? and all I'm referring to is quality/realism of the instrument sounds. Sounds a little like a trick question, but I'll bite. First of all Midi can approach a level of realism to where the ear can not tell if it is a synthesized sound or the real vibrations of a string. Otherwise, Music generated by Realtracks is Real. Music generated by Midi is a simulation of real via a synthesizer. I'll step back and duck now!

Re: use RealTracks fiddle to play melody that i designate ? DrDan #173550 09/23/12 02:39 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 7,697 Redondo Beach, Ca. jazzmammal Veteran
jazzmammal Veteran Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 7,697 Redondo Beach, Ca.	That's exactly right. When you try to compare midi/synths to real recordings you're getting deep into recording art. The answer is the classic "it depends". Midi can sound very, very realistic but not always. Emulating solo instruments that are supposed to be right out front in a recording or performance is the most difficult. The two biggest ones are horns and guitars including a steel guitar. Very difficult to fool a good listener that you're hearing a real person soloing on those instruments. But, as soon as stuff is in a complex mix then you can't tell at all with good equipment and synths. Movie soundtracks have tons of midi all through them. Strings, horn sections, rhythm sections, all of it. Put a real soloist, vocalist or lead player on top of that and it sounds awesome. Whats $20,000 worth of synths and studio gear and maybe two killer players compared to hiring the LA Phil for a week for your movie project? Remember Miami Vice and Jan Hammer? That was all done by him in his house 25 years ago with one or two real soloists like I said. The stuff is way, way cheaper and much better now. The new midi Supertracks will sound great through a high quality synth but notice PG hasn't released any jazz, rock or country soloist sax, horns or guitars Supermidi tracks? They probably won't because even with a great synth they still won't sound that great, good maybe but not that real. Pianos, vibes, strings can sound pretty good. To get down to the real world in your house John a good decent synth for a few hundred bucks will probably be good enough for you but again "it depends". It depends on how picky you are and how much you want to spend. Bob Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.

Re: use RealTracks fiddle to play melody that i designate ? DrDan #173551 09/23/12 02:50 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,844 J JohnJohnJohn Veteran
JohnJohnJohn Veteran J Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,844	so far, it seems to me that BIAB can generate accompaniment with RealTracks that is indistinguishable from a live session recording (unless I do something goofy like adjust tempo or scale into a range a real instrument could not reach.) Can MIDI do that using a high-quality enough synth? Or is it always gonna be detectable as MIDI? I am not disrespecting MIDI or those who use it. Just, for my personal tastes, it does not seem to deliver what I am looking for. But maybe I'm wrong and having the right synth would make all the difference. That's all I'm trying to find out!

Re: use RealTracks fiddle to play melody that i designate ? JohnJohnJohn #173552 09/23/12 03:00 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA M Mac Veteran
Mac Veteran M Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA	Quote: ...Can MIDI do that using a high-quality enough synth? Or is it always gonna be detectable as MIDI?... Absolutely. Hollywood movie soundtracks and underscores use MIDI for a lot of things, including the famous Dreamworks' private MIDI samples of the London Symphony. Nobody complains about THAT sound. And many of the recordings you hear today use MIDI keyboards, at least. --Mad PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here You must be Audiominds. www.audiominds.com

Re: use RealTracks fiddle to play melody that i designate ? Mac #173553 09/23/12 09:02 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,844 J JohnJohnJohn Veteran
JohnJohnJohn Veteran J Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,844	thanks to everyone for sharing your knowledge and insights on MIDI. I still have a couple of questions if anyone can help, 1) I downloaded and installed Coyote ForteDXi demo but cannot really figure out what to do next! can someone give me just a really brief instruction on how to use Coyote ForteDXi in one of my songs? Is there a quick way to convert my song (currently using RealTracks) to MIDI and then switch between Coyote WaveTable and Coyote ForteDXi so I can hear the difference? 2) can you run a MIDI guitar track through Amplitude?

Re: use RealTracks fiddle to play melody that i designate ? JohnJohnJohn #173554 09/23/12 09:51 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 8,333 London, Ontario, Canada John Conley Veteran
John Conley Veteran Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 8,333 London, Ontario, Canada	OK, Do you have a folder with demo songs? If so you need to go into the Opts, Prefs, and then Midi and select the Coyote Forte Dxi. I'm sure they have a read me file in there, that would be a good place to start. Midi is a language, and it tells each note what the note is, how long, and other stuff. So instead of having a RealTrack you get a sort of retro thing. Now consider this: Most Movies and their soundtracks use Midi a LOT. So what I would do is get a track, ie Melody in one of the folders, and then listen to it with the midi. You can switch the actual notes to be patch 25 (Nylon Guitar) or drop down and find a cello. Or fiddle. Muck about. Mute everything else and listen to it. This will give you a good idea of where things are, and what might work. Midi includes everything. Drums, Bass, etc. It gives you total control, unlike Realtracks which are made by the musican and Doc Gannon and his pals. So you can sort of get to the guts of things. I don't know Amplitude from yer hole in yer wall. Yet midi has been around from the get go, and I have 3 midi modules, a Ketron I got from PG music was the last piece of hardware I got. I can take my cheesy Yamaha keyboard make years ago, and plug the cable from it to the Ketron and then to the mixer and get some great sounds. You too can do this, midi modules are all over. Good luck. I think you must have some simple folder of songs you got with Band in a Box. Look for them. Some are classical. At one time you got Scottish, English, Irish, and American Folk songs with the purchase. Give it a whirl as they say. John Conley Musica est vita

Re: use RealTracks fiddle to play melody that i designate ? John Conley #173555 09/23/12 10:39 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,027 Pietersburg, South Africa Kevin Woolley Expert
Kevin Woolley Expert Joined: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,027 Pietersburg, South Africa	The factor which determines the quality of the midi playback is the quality of the midi synthesizer. That is it in a nutshell - as others have pointed out. The factor which determines the quality of the midi synthesizer is the quality of its samples and the size thereof. The cheapest and by association - cheapest sounding - have a very small and limited sample set. As Mac has said the Hollywood composers are using Mega Gigabyte sample libraries which with all the various articulations available will sound very realistic indeed. The Edirol SD range of modules falls in the middle ground with obvious smaller sample sets. Sometimes even a poor sample can sit just fine in the mix!! BIAB's realtracks are the closest you'll get to real before you get a real band in and record them. I sometimes wonder why the obsession with making it sound totally real from midi - the musicians of the 80's only had analogue synths and drum machines, but to me, some great pop songs came out of that period. Stevie Wonder and his early synclavier (limited memory and sample quality)were a great team and nobody despised the sound of his backings. Kevin

Re: use RealTracks fiddle to play melody that i designate ? Kevin Woolley #173556 09/23/12 11:36 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 8,333 London, Ontario, Canada John Conley Veteran
John Conley Veteran Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 8,333 London, Ontario, Canada	Kevin, I agree. And the end result is in the eye of the beholder, or as we might say, in the ear of the B flat. Most, as in the average Joe, could not tell a 10 cent organ from a 400 dollar sample. In fact they might like the cheap one. There used to be a woman who played locally and she had a terrible organ. It was beyond junk. Yet content rules in Canada say that a percentage of all air time has to be Canuck. OK. But my Mom and Dad loved her, and she played stuff they knew, like old Nat King Cole songs. Her drum machine was just the pits as we say. Awful. Yet Mom would say if only you could play like that. Geez. I know for a fact that the guy sitting next to you can't tell the Strat (whatever that really is) from the front fender of your Chev. Great. So on we go. Guys mess with midi and this and that ad naseum. In reality, get on with it. I just want to hear music. Layers of sound is ok I guess. But just a nice bass, a good comp, and me on top works fine. No need to get too fancy. When my wife plays the flute or a keyboard with me, I play the 3rd below or whatever is called for. Stay out of the way. If we get serious I arrange it a bit, with some notes on what to do, or NOT to do. And some simple stuff like an up arrow and 8va etc to ensure she does not get surprised by an upcoming Bflat on the flute where it won't go. Alas. (poor Yorik)!!! I'm holding the numb skull at this point, gazing into the eye sockets.... Where's Oh feel ya.?? John Conley Musica est vita

Re: use RealTracks fiddle to play melody that i designate ? Kevin Woolley #173557 09/23/12 11:49 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,844 J JohnJohnJohn Veteran
JohnJohnJohn Veteran J Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,844	ok. I appreciate the help but I'm really lost! I found a song file named -BigPink.MGU and loaded it and it appears to be pure MIDI except for drums. when I play this song it sounds exactly like the "music" I experienced on my computer long ago (very bad in other words!) so I must be using a really bad built-in synth. I tried to change to Coyote Forte Dxi but couldn't really figure out how to do that. I just don't yet have enough knowledge of MIDI and BIAB to intuit anything! For now I'll just stay focused on using RealTracks and if I need more then I'll learn more about MIDI w/BIAB to see if that is something for me. Thanks to everyone for helping.

Re: use RealTracks fiddle to play melody that i designate ? Matt Finley #173558 09/24/12 05:16 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,492 Schleswig-Holstein, Germany GHinCH Expert
GHinCH Expert Joined: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,492 Schleswig-Holstein, Germany	The only chance is to create a chord progression that convinces the fiddle to play as close as possible to the intended melody line. Also tedious work and no guarantee that it will play the same any time when it is regenerated. Desktop; i7-2600k, 8 GB mem., Win 10 Pro, BIAB 2017; RB 2017 - latest build Laptop: i5-2410M, 4 GB mem, Win 10 Pro, BIAB 2017; RB 2017 - latest build

Re: use RealTracks fiddle to play melody that i designate ? GHinCH #173559 09/24/12 06:25 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,815 Kemmrich Expert
Kemmrich Expert Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,815	John^3: You are now getting into the never never land of midi quality. There are tons of free soundfonts and soundfont players (replacement for things that ship with BIAB -- google SGM-V2.01 or Free Soundfonts). However, expect to spend a lot of time downloading stuff and testing it out. Buying stuff will "probably" get you better results, but I use only free stuff -- I don't do tons of midi. Here are two songs with some midi in them using only free soundfonts and a free soundfont player (sounds OK to me): Made To Be Played: Midi: bass, piano, soprano sax 5/4 Swing Jam: Midi: piano and soprano sax (maybe bass -- but I lost this file in famous disk crash of 2009! -- Oh yea, buy a one TB external backup drive now!!!!!!!!!!!!) By the way, the 5/4 jam came straight from a BIAB demo song: Gimmie Five - 54_Even.sty demo (I think) Soundclick is acting up for me, so you might need to download these to listen to them Last edited by Kemmrich; 09/24/12 06:39 AM. Now at bandcamp: Crows Say Vee-Eh @ bandcamp or soundcloud: Kevin @ soundcloud

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