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I respectfully disagree. .... My reading comprehension is adequate, and when I read:
"ALL of it has to be pristine audio, though, we all work to the same standard, or we don't get paid, whioh means that you ain't workin'..."
I must assume that the 'you' refers to me personally. How else would one interpret that statement? -- Bob
Bob, I saw that reply before you responded and I didn't take the "you" to be "YOU" personally. I could be wrong, but I think your interpretation is open to interpretation. I read that as a global "you".
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I read that as the universal "you", not "you" personally. FWIW
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Quote:
I read that as the universal "you", not "you" personally. FWIW
So did I.
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I respectfully disagree. People in this business are notorious for trumpeting their achievements. Take another forum member, for instance: Harvey Gerst (sorry Harvey!)
http://www.digitaldarkness.com/view/page/Harvey+Gerst
Pretty impressive bio, no? Is Harvey a "Pro"? Definitely. Is he condescending to beginners? Never.
My reading comprehension is adequate, and when I read:
"ALL of it has to be pristine audio, though, we all work to the same standard, or we don't get paid, whioh means that you ain't workin'..."
I must assume that the 'you' refers to me personally. How else would one interpret that statement?
Regards,
Bob
That's Harvey's choice. There are more pros here then you may know about and not all willing to be known for their own reasons.
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Bob, (90db),
I’ve been trying to figure out why you’re trying to take Mac to task when he was simply offering advice on the topic at hand!
Puzzling to say the least. He wasn’t bragging about his accomplishments, … he was trying to help the OP.
He’s not going to submit his “resume” to YOU in order to justify offering advice to Kevin!
Jeez!!!
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Bob, (90db),
I’ve been trying to figure out why you’re trying to take Mac to task when he was simply offering advice on the topic at hand!
Puzzling to say the least. He wasn’t bragging about his accomplishments, … he was trying to help the OP.
He’s not going to submit his “resume” to YOU in order to justify offering advice to Kevin!
Jeez!!!
Yep.Well said.
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Pulling the wagons into a circle, are we?  I merely asked a question out of curiosity: "Mac, Where can I find some examples of mixes you have done? I looked here and at your site, but couldn't find any." To which I received a rather condescending reply. Simple.
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Circle the wagons
point them round and around
the arrows are flying'
tryin' to bring Mac down
He might have made a faux paux
or maybe his audiominds is lost
but what the hell --
he has over 30,000 posts!
we know Big Mac is true
he only wants to help out
he's a hero to BIAB
and his words carry clout.
so circle the wagons
point them round and around
the arrows might be flying'
but they won't bring Mac down
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Have a Happy and Blessed American Thanksgiving Holiday, ya'll!
--Mac
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90 dB
This many people supporting Mac is not a "Pulling the wagons into a circle" response. You'd get the same response from many other forums and anybody that has dealt with him.
Especially outside of the internet.
I thought about not saying anything and it didn't feel right. Mac is much respected and appreciated here. Harvey Gerst is respected here also, but I know Mac better than I know Harvey, and they are both way up there in my book.
/just my opinion
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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OK, if I had a wagon it might be in a circle but I too do not see that happening here as like many have stated what I read was also a "global" reference.
Now with that said if there is some bad blood here this might be another story all together, hopefully not for the forum. But for now I am commenting on what I thought was a global "you" reference.
Later,
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Quote:
Have a Happy and Blessed American Thanksgiving Holiday, ya'll!
You too, Mac.
Thanks much for all of your helpnd encouragement over the years.
Don S.
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OK, back to the song.
Kevin - I just listened a couple times through and I think this track has plenty of 'sparkle'. Sounds danged good in my opinion from an EQ standpoint.
There's a fairly strong mixing element that seems strange to me - if you don't mind me pointing it out. I should mention that I am listening via in-ear monitors, playing your track against some Alan Jackson tracks as references - which is the best comparison CD I have to this style. I've listened specifically to these tracks: I Don't Need the Booze, Tropical Depression, and She's Got The Rhythm and I Got The Blues. I also listened to Rascal Flatts "What Hurts The Most", as I recall this one has some more widely panned BGVs - this one is more modern in it's heavy compression. Finally, I've got some Randy Travis and listened to "The Gift" and "Jerusalem's Cry" and "When Mama Prayed", which has some thick BGVs.
In your track the background harmony vocals are not in the 'background'. At several places, they are considerably louder than the main vocal - for example in the chorus after the first verse. In addition to the volume, the panning of the BGVs/harmony vox draws one's attention to the BGV's over the main vocal. The aah-ooh harmonies in verse 2 are also much louder than the main vocal. Again in the last chorus the harmonies are louder than the main vox/melody. I would cut them at least 6 dB for each side. I would also try to put them behind your main vocal, like what would happen on a sound stage. Listening to panning on most of those tracks, the BGVs are very often center panned. The exceptions in the list of songs I gave above are the Rascal Flatts song and "When Mama Prayed" by Randy Travis. When he is doing his own BGVs, they are heavily center panned, when other vocalists come in the panning is much wider. But in every case in every one of these songs, there is no doubt about the main vocal being quite a bit louder than the bgvs.
2. I can kind of understand the tympani roll to some extent, but it buries everything else in the mix when it comes in. What does it sound like when it's not in there?
So, I think if you are uncomfortable with this song, it's not the mastering/EQ, but more a mixing thing that might be what's concerning you. Try cranking those BGVs down (quite well done actually) quite a bit and center panning them in at least in some parts of the song for dynamics and attention to main vocal/melody.
I didn't see anyone else mention this aspect of the song, but I think it might be what is bothering you.
-Scott
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Quote:
Quote:
Have a Happy and Blessed American Thanksgiving Holiday, ya'll!
You too, Mac.
Thanks much for all of your helpnd encouragement over the years.
Don S.
A BIG +1
I haven't lost all of my marbles but there is a small hole in the bag someplace!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Quote:
There's a fairly strong mixing element that seems strange to me - if you don't mind me pointing it out. ... In your track the background harmony vocals are not in the 'background'. At several places, they are considerably louder than the main vocal ... I would cut them at least 6 dB for each side. I would also try to put them behind your main vocal, like what would happen on a sound stage. Listening to panning on most of those (reference) tracks, the BGVs are very often center panned. ... But in every case in every one of these songs, there is no doubt about the main vocal being quite a bit louder than the bgvs.
I think that is quite a perceptive opinion. I have been listening to some youTube videos where the harmonies are often the same volume as the lead vocal (I can't remember a great example -- but the civil wars do that a lot). I can't say that I meant to do that here, but it sort of turned out that way (ha, ha). I also thought that the lead vocal was really getting drowned out in the last chorus, but I see you think it is everywhere. I will knock a few dB of of the BGV's and I was think of adding a doubled lead vocal line for the last chorus -- it needs more umpff. Also an interesting point on the panning of BGV's. I am thinking of leaving them panned wide here -- but I see no reason NOT to experiment on that item.
Quote:
2. I can kind of understand the tympani roll to some extent, but it buries everything else in the mix when it comes in. What does it sound like when it's not in there? -Scott
Someone mentioned that the key change section made the interlude a little long (even if it is a fairly short song). I tried to add that timpani roll and me on a conga (roland spd-20) to just add some "interest". I was going after that russ kunkle roll that he does on the Jackson Browne "for Everyman" album. I could cut it out, but I need to play with it some more before I give up on it. I should go back and listen to the russ kunkle roll and see what happens to all the other instruments while that is happening.
Thanks for the in-depth, considerate observations.
Kevin
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Kevin,
I was also listening over some very flat, highly isolating in-ear monitors, to both the reference songs I mentioned (don't know if there are YouTubes of them or not - and whether or not YouTube audio is trustworthy for reference is a topic for a different discussion) back to back with your track on SoundCloud. By using these in-ear monitors, it does indeed emphasize panning in one's head, compared to nearfield monitor or other stereo speaker listening. I did the comparisons with in-ear monitors very purposely however, as it doesn't matter if it's a home recording or a studio released recording, the panning highlights are there in both cases.
As to the EQ content and punch and so forth, I think your track sounds very polished as it is with great 'sparkle'. In fact, I would say it's right up in the top 5 or so RealBand assisted tracks I've heard posted by users over the years. I was not expecting that based on your typed description. I was ready for a dull, mono-centric track, with classic woofy vocals. Not the case at all.
I think you've done a great job with the vocals (my guess is that they are high-passed pretty aggressively) as they lack the hallmark low frequency muffle that so many home recorded tracks suffer from (some of mine included).
When I've helped folks mix and 'master' their projects, most of the time I spend effort with carving EQ for different tracks and more aggressively panning individual elements to give the tracks spatial and spectral dynamics. With this one, it is my opinion that you are very very close to being fully baked and ready to sell, with the exception of those harmony vox. I would be willing to send you a mashup of the BGV sections of the tracks that I have listed for references to you if you like. It will take me a little work, but I will do that. I'm not saying that these are outstanding examples of engineering, but they have similar vibe to your song. I don't have a huge modern country collection, but enough to do some comparative listening. I have just a few more in the stack of CDs that I would use for references; another is Lyle Lovett's Joshua Judges Ruth CD. That is an engineering Pièce de résistance, in my opinion. George Massenburg was the engineer. With high quality isolating headphones you can hear with more detail what the engineer was up to, than with typical monitors in a typical home studio. Not saying that those things are necessary for a good sounding playback on most systems, but they are very revealing.
-Scott
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Have a Happy and Blessed American Thanksgiving Holiday, ya'll!
You too, Mac.
Thanks much for all of your helpnd encouragement over the years.
Don S.
A BIG +1
Put me on that pile!
And to all the rest of you forum rascals out there as well.
Later,
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So once we get past "sparkle", we moving on to "snap, crackle and pop"? (WAY too close to "shake, rattle and roll", btw....)
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Quote:
...I would be willing to send you a mashup of the BGV sections of the tracks that I have listed for references to you if you like. It will take me a little work, but I will do that. I'm not saying that these are outstanding examples of engineering, but they have similar vibe to your song. I don't have a huge modern country collection, but enough to do some comparative listening. I have just a few more in the stack of CDs that I would use for references; another is Lyle Lovett's Joshua Judges Ruth CD. That is an engineering Pièce de résistance, in my opinion. George Massenburg was the engineer. With high quality isolating headphones you can hear with more detail what the engineer was up to, than with typical monitors in a typical home studio. Not saying that those things are necessary for a good sounding playback on most systems, but they are very revealing. ... -Scott
I have rhapsody, so I should be able to look up all those tunes you mentioned and check them out (they will be lower quality MP3 files, though (I am not sure of the bit rate). My current reference tracks, ripped from my CD collection (wav files) are:
Counting Crows: Sullivan Street, Mr. Jones, Anna Begins, Rain King (all from that first album -- I should get a couple from albums 2 and 3).
Joni Mitchell: You Turn Me on I'm a Radio
Ricky Skaggs and Bruce Hornsby: Hills of Mexico, Gulf of Mexico Fishing Boat Blues, Come on Out
Natalie Merchant: Jealousy, Kind & Generous
Jimmy Buffet: My Lovely Lady, Tin Cup Chalice
Tracy Chapman: Crossroads, Freedom Now
Nelly Furtado: One-Trick Pony, Powerless (Say What You Want)
... and a few others.
By the way, thanks for the kind words. I know I am going to struggle somewhat with vocal recording since I am using my $50 MXL V63M mic with my $20 Art Tube MP Studio preamp (both on sale!) in an untreated room, so it is nice to hear that it still sounds OK. I need to re-do some parts, so I never get the same positioning, so who knows if it will sound similar! Plus I plan then to go over all the vocal lines with melodyne essential. I am not worried about it being perfect, I just want to tighten up the notes that are too far out.
Kevin
Edit: yes, I use high pass filters on just about everything (until I start hearing any change and then I roll it back).
Last edited by Kemmrich; 11/21/12 08:37 AM.
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Good points.
I also took you as a "everyone type of you".
And Mac is condescending & arrogant at times, which is an atmosphere that is getting prevalent on this & other forums a lot these days...
We hope ya all have a great turkey day!
i5 3.20GHz, 32gb RAM, 1tb SSD OS, 12tb HDD, 4gb gForce vid card, 32" monitor, Audient id44, Win10 x64, BiaB/RB 2023, Reaper 6,IK Multimedia Total Studio 3.5 MAX, Waves 10
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