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I've been looking for a product for years that will show me a choice of scales/modes to use over a set of chord changes (read in via MIDI - similar to the AutoChord feature in RB, but for scales and modes). I still haven't found it - though I'm sure BB soloist has that information whether or not it's revealing it.
I realize with a good knowledge of theory one can figure it out - but I enjoy the idea of first being told what scale/mode to use over a set of changes, hearing it (as I play it on the guitar - I can find scales and modes quickly) to decide if I ever want to use it again, and then deciding whether I want to bother understanding how it was derived for future use.
If BB can't do this - can you recommend a product that does ?
Last edited by Joe V; 12/22/12 04:41 AM.
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Journeyman
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I'm going to take a wild shot at a response before the people who actually know what they are talking about chime in.
You're onto a clue when you mention the Soloist. BIAB of course, has both virtual keyboards and fretboards which show you what the soloist is playing.
By regenerating the song...you will get at least slightly differnt solo runs every time and I would GUESS that if you change Styles...within the same genre...you would probably get quite different solos.
And you can SLOW the tempo down to a crawl to make it easier to see and follow along with the scales/modes the Soloist is playing.
But I don't know of a way to FORCE the Soloist to play any particular scales/modes...but that doesn't mean there isn't one.
Best,
Jim
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I'm not aware of anything specific that Biab does but most of the Real Track soloists have Real Charts attached to them. Those are actual recorded solo's by some of the best players on the planet. Just studying what they did on those charts help a lot.
Now, here's the part you won't like. There's no shortcuts with this. The top players are not simply playing one mode, scale, whatever over a set of changes. No, I wish it were that simple. They're playing one mode for two changes, switching it up to a different one for one bar, doing something else for the next couple bars, yet another one for a turnaround and then for the second time through it's different again. That's their genius that their minds can work that fast. I watched a Tony Monaco video where he's playing left hand bass on organ and some very technical stuff with his right and he's casually talking into a mic saying stuff like, that's a mixolydian scale there oh, that's nice, I did a half diminished arpeggio, then here's a cool blues scale run and this is just for the first 8 bars or so. Amazing. He vamps like that for about 10 minutes and it's all different and he's talking and explaining while he's playing this unbelievable stuff.
Here's three names to look up on Youtube:
Michael Wolfe. He's a heavyweight studio cat with a big resume including being Arsenio Hall's musical director. He has a set of instructional videos that are really good because they're not too structured like a class would be. He just sits at his piano and casually talks concepts and plays them. Excellent stuff. Maybe 10 videos.
Marius Nordal. He's a professor of music somewhere and is a killer player. His videos are much more scholarly and equally excellent. He goes into exactly what you're asking, all the various modes, scales, how to finger them, how to practice them and how to use them in different tunes. He's posted over 50 videos.
Dave Frank. I put him at the top of the heap. Very advanced. He's posted 15 Master Classes that are over an hour each and very deep. Master Class indeed. This is for people who are already Julliard grads and such. They're fascinating to watch and try to learn something but frankly they are pretty much over my head. I understand a lot of it intellectually but my chops aren't good enough to put most of it to use but I have managed to pick up a few things. One example is one video is all about Oscar Peterson. Frank plays a portion of Oscars blazing fast playing from a famous recording, then he plays it himself, same tempo, just as good but stops and explains in detail exactly what is happening then picks it up again and stops, explains and so on. Dave Frank is one baaad cat on piano.
These videos are all free. Check them out. I've downloaded all of them and studying them will keep me busy for the rest of my life.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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that's a very interesting list Bob That Dick Hyman sure is a player... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rev_sDyeJQ
Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k
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...I'm glad you paraphrased a little - what I actually can do as a guitar player without an excellent 'ear', is to pretty quickly play any scale or mode you throw at me - G Lydian, E phrygian, C major (my favorite), yada yada yada) - what I have ABSOLUTELY no idea is how and when to use these as I hear a set of changes. Furthermore, I'd like to be given scales and modes for the start/stop points of the chord sets in a song. What I'm looking for is the ability to get my fingers to the right place and at first, just play the straight scale from root to root, and then start to 'improvise' over it - mix the notes up, add arpegios and chromatics, add rests etc. - It's my understanding that this is what good improvisers do in real time when they hear a set of new changes that they need to play over (correct me if I'm wrong) - I want to be able to do that to. After 30 years of playing guitar on and off, I can't even do this at a basic level. I feel a tool such as I describe would help get me to the next level more quickly.
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"But I don't know of a way to FORCE the Soloist to play any particular scales/modes...but that doesn't mean there isn't one."
I must have miscommunicated my post - I just want to see the NAMES of scales/modes that BB is using during a set of chord changes - I say a "set" - meaning more than one chord, because I can't imagine changing my internal visual memory of the sacle/mode fingering in real time, chord by chord (easy for the computer). So I'm hoping BB can give me another 'scale/mode' information - just above a chord SET, and include a button for a text note describing the underlying music theory as to how it selected that one.
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"The top players are not simply playing one mode, scale, whatever over a set of changes. No, I wish it were that simple. They're playing one mode for two changes, switching it up to a different one for one bar, doing something else for the next couple bars, yet another one for a turnaround and then for the second time through it's different again"
I'm not sure I'll ever get there, but there are lots of top rock and blues players that do wonders with the Pentatonic scale for MANY MANY changes. Can there not be other changes with accompanying scales and modes that sound good ? Heck - the beauty of the guitar is the ability to change keys while maintaining the same fingering. I think most guitar players can get the fingering in their head, but the hard part is knowing it quickly enough during the changes to actually add some feel and some phrasing.
...and my guess is that moste of those top players doing what you have described have to be playing by feel and ear (as opposed to 'cognitively)without explicitly thinking of the underlying theory, because they have had the luxury (or made the life sacrifice) to practice 'cognitively' for enough hours so that they can do it automatically or instinctively. Given the fact that I have to work for a living - I'm looking for a tool that can help me jump a little closer to their level in less time than they had to spend (barring the 'natural' talent I wasn't born with : )
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one more point - just like BB can generate accompaniment with 'many changes' or a more simple accompaniment - similarly, why couldn't the soloist do the same for the scales/modes/arpeggios it chooses - and share the scale/mode/arpeggio names above the chord (set) symbols during the real time playback along with the option to display a NOTE (text) describing the underlying theoretical derivation of that scale/mode/arpeggio. This would basically allow BB to be a "John Abercrobie" style method generator (for those of you old enough to remember when his books were the new, useful thing on the block)
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Quote:
I've been looking for a product for years that will show me a choice of scales/modes to use over a set of chord changes ...
The -> Jazz Scale Suggester System may just be your ticket. It reads BiaB chord changes and presents you with just what you may be looking for.
Martin
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Another good source is the “Incredible Scale Finder” book from Hal Leonard: http://www.amazon.com/Incredible-Scale-F...+scale+finder#_Not only does this book have over 1300 guitar scales it shows you how scales are formed as well as what scales and modes go with what chords. This book should be in every guitarist’s hands IMHO.
The bumper sticker said "I'm a veterinarian, therefore I can drive like an animal".
Suddenly I realized how many proctologists are on the road.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Quote:
Now, here's the part you won't like. There's no shortcuts with this. The top players are not simply playing one mode, scale, whatever over a set of changes. Bob
Bob, you do have a way of hitting the nail on the head. You also posted recently on the challenges for musicians using computer technology. Very insightful on both accounts. Thanks for putting it in words. 
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Quote:
The -> Jazz Scale Suggester System may just be your ticket. It reads BiaB chord changes and presents you with just what you may be looking for.
This is a good thing to add to your practice regimen. While it won't identify the modes, etc. used, it will generate scales over any chords BB is playing and you can follow along with that, enforcing the habit of which scale to "grab" over a chord or smaller group of chord changes, such as a 2-5-1.
A good way to drill these is to start out at whatever Tempo you need in order to sightread along with the suggested scales as they play back. Then, after becoming familiar with that, try Muting the sound of the BB scales and playing them in the same fashion all by yourself. Finally, when you pretty much feel that you that down pretty well, try opening those scales and positions up *musically* by following along with the suggested scale, but altering the thing away from just playing the "right notes" in the linear fashion as depicted. Try playing every other note of the suggested scale, starting with the 1,3,5, etc. odd combinations, with longer note durations, which expands the thing into the domain of the arpeggio. For guitarists, good idea to also practice the suggested scales *in the various different POSITIONS possible, such that you gain the ability to be able to "grab" that scale over the chord from anywhere you happen to already be on the neck.
The Jamie Aebersold website has a link button to some FREEBIES, one of those freebies is likely still posted there, the .pdf "Scale Syllabus" -- just a page or two that plots out the certain scales and modes that work over the certain types of chords that we encounter. That one sheet can really help you to sort out the situation, if used properly over time as part of not only your hands on practicing, but your *mental* practicing, which is actually a large part of preparing yourself to be a great soloist.
There is also a great system of thinking that can help some out along these lines.
There are a lot of different ways to go about the way we perceive musical events, one method is the rote memorization of modes and scales and, at first, following tried and true combinations such as that Scale Syllabus outlines. The caveat here is that it often gets in the way of being able to play a MELODIC sounding solo. Just being able to run the scales and modes at the right time over the "right" chords is the curse of the beginning to intermediate aspiring jazz soloist.
Well, there is a different way to approach the way we think about these things, and that is called the "PENTATONIC PAIRS" system. This method starts with the likely well known "blues scale" (wellknown to most guitar players anyway) and shows a way to generate the modes and scales higher than that pentatonic by using the two whole tone steps hiding inside every Pentatonic scale, whether in Major or minor modes.
There is available a rather excellent online teaching tool, IMO that is done by Willie Works. It is both inexpensive and quite powerful in scope of this subject.
http://www.jazzeveryone.com/
Quote:
About Willie Works
His professional career spans forty-five years of performing with such jazz greats as the Woody Herman Orchestra, the Al Belletto Sextet, the Slide Hampton Octet with Freddie Hubbard and George Coleman, the MJT+3 with Frank Strozier and Bob Cranshaw, singer Peggy Lee and many more.
In addition to his international performances, residencies, educational clinics and jazz research, Willie Thomas was active with the International Association of Jazz Educators and was inducted into it’s Hall of Fame in 1994. His “Jazz Anyone” classroom series now published by Alfred Music is still used in schools throughout the country. He lives on Orcas Island, Washington and his interactive “Jazz Everyone” web site puts Willie Thomas back into action.
Enjoy his unique jazz insights as you Play and Learn with his online lesson series
Incidentally, at least the beginnings of how to use the Pentatonic Pairs is there for free, in a video.
*This system, with Willie himself issuing videos that are like having private lessons with a master, someone who has lived the live, done the job day in and day out, able to expound at will on just about any part of the subject of improvisation as regards being able to play the hip modern jazz solo, is surprisingly affordable as well as being one of the coolest ways to "GET THERE" rapidly that I know.
Check him out.
--Mac
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Another great set of videos Mac. I just created a folder for Willie Thomas. Some time ago you talked about pentatonics and on a different occasion you also talked about diminished scales. I just counted them up, Marius Nordal has 6 videos on pentatonics and 4 on diminished scales. What's very cool about Marius is as a pianist he goes into great detail about how to finger and practice those for different situations. Combining those with Willies pentatonic pairs and diminished scale videos is great. Thanks for turning me on to him.
Christmas is slow for me this year everybody is spread out all over the place. I've been doing a lot of shedding the last month or so and I'm going to continue shedding until tax season starts to pick up again.
I've become such a fan of Youtube. There's so much great stuff there on pretty much anything a person could be interested in.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Nadal gives the more or less standard keyboard fingerings for the pentatonic scales.
These must be learned, of course. But there will come a day in the gymnastics of the pianist when you may find some alternate fingerings that can be useful in certain of the keys. This will sometimes exhibit itself in the proverbial, "running out of fingers" when improvising a run or a phrase. Don't be afraid to violate those fingerings when you fid it useful to do so. For one thing, a different sound can be achieved for the same notes, merely because of the way the fingers and thumb work (or don't work) for us, as the case may be. For example, the Melodic goal can be greatly impacted by choice of fingering when we're talking the pianoforte and not the organ.
I personally associate this sort of thing with the Martial Arts, the example being that at first we absolutely must learn the katas, no way around that. But at some point, you then build on that and learn when to throw the kata to the wind, forcing a changeup that can domnate the match. Ala Bruce Lee, who was an advocate of "no kata" style. In order for Bruce to do the things he demonstrated on a daily basis like that, though, he obviously firs had to become an all-out disciplined master of the katas. That is what gave him the freedom to improvise the way he did on the mat.
Or, as Charlie Parker said about Music Theory, "Learn it. Forget it. Then PLAY."
It is a wonderful gift from God, the ability to continue to learn, IMO.
I still love going to a gig with a new trick or two up my sleeve. Quite often that new trick is "new" only to me, but the joy in it is that now I've made it mine as well.
Prof. Longhair called them, "devices" -- an apt nomenclature IMO.
--Mac
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"The -> Jazz Scale Suggester System may just be your ticket. It reads BiaB chord changes and presents you with just what you may be looking for."
I'm always amazed and astonished at the great info I get in this forum. This does sound like just the ticket I was looking for. But I'd be really surprised if BB/RB couldn't do the exact same thing but in a much better way, in terms of the quality of accompaniments generated. I'm also surprised - especially if Mac sees this as a useful part of the regimen - that this feature has not yet made it's way into BB. Seems like an easy one for them to implement given what they've done with BB over the last (?20+) years.
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I downloaded and tried that Jazz Scale Suggester out a few years ago, while I personally did not find it to be what I need, you should try it out and evaluate that for yourself.
After all, there is always something to learn from any sources in my opinion.
As long as you approach it as "having fun" the learning curve stays at a reasonable rate.
--Mac
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Quote:
I'm not aware of anything specific that Biab does but most of the Real Track soloists have Real Charts attached to them. Those are actual recorded solo's by some of the best players on the planet. Just studying what they did on those charts help a lot.
Now, here's the part you won't like. There's no shortcuts with this. The top players are not simply playing one mode, scale, whatever over a set of changes. No, I wish it were that simple. They're playing one mode for two changes, switching it up to a different one for one bar, doing something else for the next couple bars, yet another one for a turnaround and then for the second time through it's different again. That's their genius that their minds can work that fast. I watched a Tony Monaco video where he's playing left hand bass on organ and some very technical stuff with his right and he's casually talking into a mic saying stuff like, that's a mixolydian scale there oh, that's nice, I did a half diminished arpeggio, then here's a cool blues scale run and this is just for the first 8 bars or so. Amazing. He vamps like that for about 10 minutes and it's all different and he's talking and explaining while he's playing this unbelievable stuff.
Here's three names to look up on Youtube:
Michael Wolfe. He's a heavyweight studio cat with a big resume including being Arsenio Hall's musical director. He has a set of instructional videos that are really good because they're not too structured like a class would be. He just sits at his piano and casually talks concepts and plays them. Excellent stuff. Maybe 10 videos.
Marius Nordal. He's a professor of music somewhere and is a killer player. His videos are much more scholarly and equally excellent. He goes into exactly what you're asking, all the various modes, scales, how to finger them, how to practice them and how to use them in different tunes. He's posted over 50 videos.
Dave Frank. I put him at the top of the heap. Very advanced. He's posted 15 Master Classes that are over an hour each and very deep. Master Class indeed. This is for people who are already Julliard grads and such. They're fascinating to watch and try to learn something but frankly they are pretty much over my head. I understand a lot of it intellectually but my chops aren't good enough to put most of it to use but I have managed to pick up a few things. One example is one video is all about Oscar Peterson. Frank plays a portion of Oscars blazing fast playing from a famous recording, then he plays it himself, same tempo, just as good but stops and explains in detail exactly what is happening then picks it up again and stops, explains and so on. Dave Frank is one baaad cat on piano.
These videos are all free. Check them out. I've downloaded all of them and studying them will keep me busy for the rest of my life.
Bob
Thanks for that Bob. Exactly what I've been looking for to get my playing to the next level. I am particularly enjoying Marius Nordal
If anyone has any other similar educational jazz piano links, please let us know
Mal
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