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Let's have some dialog on these subjects. Are they important to you and why.
Subject: three important things
Now that i have been using RB for a pretty long time. and i have had the opportunity to see how it works under different situation i have three things i think that are very important to the long term deveopment, that need to be addressed. I will list them and give a brief break down of the reasons
1. Node based automation. I know that this has been asked for for sometime now, but it is a really good add on feature to get done. Sure there is recorded fader moves, but those are not very precise, and requires several attempts to get it right, and thus make you not want to wrestle it. Adding a node based system that addresses Volume, Panning, FX, and even Aux Send would be very powerful on this system, and would keep more people from jumping to other programs to finish a song.
2. Assignable tracking for using multiple input interfaces. Yes the system automatically assigns the tracks in order, but this can be mess and frustrating. I used it last night and must say i was able to get it done, but being able to assign tracks would be killer. Let's look at why. Use my Tascam US-800, and Reaper, or Sonar for example. On my Tascam, i have the vocals run through the digital input on channels 7/8, and in Reaper i can open up two tracks an assign the one to input 1 for my guitar, and one to inputs 7/8 vo vocals, and all is great. In RB i have to hit audio record, and it takes up 8 tracks, and put the guitar on one, and the vocals on 7 and 8 so i have 5 dead tracks in the middle. Dead you say, why notjust record on them. Sorry you can't, as it pops up a warning that you can't record on a track that has data on it. What data, it is dead air, as that track had no actual input. So having a drop down menu in each track to assign which input you want would be killer. you could assign the guitar, and the bass, and the vocal in any configuation you want.
3. Please, finally address the VST timing issue. this has been asked for for a long time now, and should be handled. I really get the development of RTs and Super midi tracks, these things are great, and unique. having the VSTi issue settles, and the above automation system you could use VSTi's like Jamstix and automate the output allowing Jamstix to actually JAM! Imagine Super midi tracks laying down a great beat through Jamstix, and having the automation system send changing dynamics causing it to drop to sidestick in a soft place, and go to snare and ride during the harder parts of a song.
Last edited by Robh; 01/11/13 02:15 PM.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2025, Realband, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 9 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app.
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Quote:
Imagine Super midi tracks laying down a great beat through Jamstix, and having the automation system send changing dynamics causing it to drop to sidestick in a soft place, and go to snare and ride during the harder parts of a song.
Now that sure sounds exciting, and is actually related to my posts regarding how to make the BB/RB/RT system sound more "human"- more groovin' with less programming.
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Quote:
Adding a node based system that addresses Volume, Panning, FX, and even Aux Send would be very powerful on this system, and would keep more people from jumping to other programs to finish a song.
RB already has what I think you mean by a node-based system. In addition to recording mixer moves in real time, you can use the PIANO ROLL window to draw the information onto each track. For MIDI tracks you can automate all the 127 MIDI controllers and for an audio track you can automate volume, pan and the aux sends. The information you draw will also be displayed by the mixer in real time.
ROG.
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Quote:
Quote:
Adding a node based system that addresses Volume, Panning, FX, and even Aux Send would be very powerful on this system, and would keep more people from jumping to other programs to finish a song.
RB already has what I think you mean by a node-based system. In addition to recording mixer moves in real time, you can use the PIANO ROLL window to draw the information onto each track. For MIDI tracks you can automate all the 127 MIDI controllers and for an audio track you can automate volume, pan and the aux sends. The information you draw will also be displayed by the mixer in real time.
ROG.
Right you are. I do sort of wish that folks would stop trying to change RB/BIAB into just another main stream prog. I like it as it is.
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there is a difference between node based control and what is in RB, although they are similar.
In RB, in order to create a smooth volume transition in piano roll, you'd have to draw a line, which would then become a whole bunch of incremental volume events. If you need to edit them later, you may have to edit each one separately or draw a new line.
Node based controls are point-to-point splining. A smooth fade could be accomplished with one click, placing a single node (point) wherever you want the volume to end up. Then the DAW interpolates the distance between nodes in X and Y axes and gives you a smooth transition between nodes.
Nodes are easy to use because they require fewer moves to create them and less work to edit them. For example, if you want to change the rate of volume change, just drag the one node to a new location. And you can very easily locate your destination on a precise value (as opposed to drawing a line with a mouse, a skill I do not possess.)
I like RBs piano roll; but I will say that node based envelopes are easy to use and easy to like
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As far as changing it. I don't want major change, just a slight change to make the system better. John I understand your view, but you like me use RB mostly for live backing, and as that it is fine as it is. But if you want to use it a full featured DAW it is still missing a few features. This is one. Sure you can record moves or draw in the piano roll, but just use a true automation system, and you fine the deep level of fine adjustment is better and easier.
I ask what is wrong with that?
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2025, Realband, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 9 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app.
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I'm forced to wonder exactly what kind of music people are recording which needs so much precise dynamic automation. Sure, if you do a lot of electronic dance music, but then you really don't want to be using RB for that anyway.
I find that RB/PT works fine for most recording and, like John, I wouldn't want to try to change it into something it was never intended to be. If you listen to my current track on the User Showcase (She'll Never Know) it's a completely static mix. Perhaps someone can post a track which needed the level of automation we're talking about, so that I can understand better why you need it.
ROG.
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ROG, while i completely understand your thoughts, it is not about making RB something it is not. It is about refining features. The current system is okay, and does work. But not being able to see the wave file as you adjust the automation is like being blind in a way. You have to do a lot of fine tuning to get the start and stop exactly where you want. and making small adustments is harder to do. Sure it can be used, but having a line thru the wave file and being able to add nodes exactly where you want, without guessing or being pretty close, would be a very big advantage.
Since the ability to make volume, pan, and aux send changes exists i imagine it is less of a change to refine the way it is implimented. Having done this kind of automation in Cakewalk, Reaper, MTS, Sonar, Acid for the last 10 years i am acutely aware of the difference. I have used Multitrackstudio for years and it is certainly not main stream. It's automation is similar to RB in that you add a fader plug into the tracks aux send windoww, which opens up separately over the track. Kind of like opening the piano roll. The advantage is that you can see the wave file ghosted behind the fader line. Maybe the route PG could look at is to ghost the wave file in the piano roll, and allow the automation chages to be made over that. change the physical view of the automated chages to dots with lines between, rather than the way it fills in between the points so that you can see what your doing better. Or make the current automation more transparent so that you can see thru it.This way the system stays the same but it is refined.
I am as staunch a supporter of RB and not trying to make it like the main stream as you and any. I have spoken out strongly in the past about leaving the GUI alone, and work on refining the tools. To me the automation, the VSTi timing, and the assignable input feature need to be refined. The are very useful tools.
You ask a great question though, what kind of music do I do. Mostly folk. country, rock, and pop. I have maybe done two electronica type songs way early when learning to play with the Acid Pro software.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2025, Realband, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 9 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app.
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My recurring take on this recurring topic is that
1) because music making is modular and involves the ability to use many tools, it doesn't matter anymore if one tool can do everything, as long as a tool to do that exists
2) what DOES matter is that your tool brings something unique to the equation that isn't available elsewhere, so everybody has an incentive to buy your tool even if they already own many other similar tools.
3) If PGMusic were trying to be all things to all musicians, they wouldn't take such pains to integrate 3rd party solutions, like Amplitube, SampleTank and the drag & drop feature that makes it convenient to move a project to the DAW of your choice. To me that looks like they are specifically focusing on proprietary development rather than on re-inventing features that are already abundantly available in other products.
Robh, you mentioned several other software packages that you already own and which already do what you want. The tools exist for your workflow to look like this:
a) generate song in BIAB
b) move song to RB to add additional real tracks, trim sections so instruments flow in and out of the mix etc
c) export to other DAW in order to use the mixing tools that you prefer
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Quote:
you can't, as it pops up a warning that you can't record on a track that has data on it.
Not sure what you mean by not being allowed to record on a track with data on it. If the track is an audio track you can record on it even if it already has audio data on it.
Jeff Yankauer
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Quote:
Quote:
you can't, as it pops up a warning that you can't record on a track that has data on it.
Not sure what you mean by not being allowed to record on a track with data on it. If the track is an audio track you can record on it even if it already has audio data on it.
I do this all the time! 
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Quote:
ROG, while i completely understand your thoughts, it is not about making RB something it is not. It is about refining features. The current system is okay, and does work. But not being able to see the wave file as you adjust the automation is like being blind in a way. You have to do a lot of fine tuning to get the start and stop exactly where you want. and making small adustments is harder to do. Sure it can be used, but having a line thru the wave file and being able to add nodes exactly where you want, without guessing or being pretty close, would be a very big advantage.
I am as staunch a supporter of RB and not trying to make it like the main stream as you and any. I have spoken out strongly in the past about leaving the GUI alone, and work on refining the tools. To me the automation, the VSTi timing, and the assignable input feature need to be refined. The are very useful tools.
Robh, I totally agree with you. RB is a very good DAW, but it's unique features aside, what is wrong with refining it and making it more appealing and full-featured so we have fewer reasons to jump to another DAW? Node-based editing and making RB able to interact with timing-based plug-ins like Jamstix would in my mind be significant improvements, and additional reasons to keep purchasing the upgrades. When making decisions each year on what to spend one's money on for software upgrades, why not cement BIAB/RB's place at the top?
Terry
BIAB/RB 2018 PlusPak. Dell Inspiron23 running Win10, 12GB RAM, 2.5GHz i7, Presonus AudioBox USB interface.
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i in no way want RB to be the swiss army knife of DAWs, a gazzion features, and none of them work well. Yes i have other DAWs, but truth be told i hardly ever crack them open anymore because i do pretty much everything in RB and BiaB. I have not tracked a tune in Sonar, Reaper, or MTS in over a year. I love RB. I do not want to keep paying for upgrade on two or three platforms. I do not want Rb to leave it's path and try to swallow up all other DAWs. I just want to see a few of the features it already has be refined a bit. It has automation, lets make it just a little bit better. It has VSTi implimentation, let's make it a little bit better. it has multitrack input capability, lets make it a little bit better. Then you have a very rich and powerful program that does things others can't even imagine.
Jeff thanks for weighing in, and you question is valid. When i track the guitar on input 1, and the vocals on input 7/8 it fills in the middle tracks and when i tried to track over them it said that those tracks were taken. Now maybe i can still track right over that, but my thought was i couldn't. I will try that tommorrow. I think a great refinement would be to make each track assignable for whatever inputs you have available.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2025, Realband, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 9 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app.
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In the Audio Drivers dialog, you could only select 1/2 and 7/8 and then there would not be blank tracks between them when recording.
Jeff Yankauer
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Jeff, guess what? You might need to be renamed "Captain Obvious" I swear man, how could i miss that absolutely obvious solution? I must be under the influence of some kind of weird cold remedy! ( the night time stuff is the best ever) but i digress. No really thanks, i guess i am having brain issues, as that will work perfectly.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2025, Realband, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 9 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app.
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I've been looking at all the online videos of the new Cubase 7, Abelton Live 9, Digital Perfomer 8, Pro Tools 11 and Sonar X2. The average user on this forum has no idea what these programs are truly capable of until they spend some serious time watching those vids. I am amazed by what they can do. It's all too easy to simply say RB does everything you need when you don't really know what you "need" until you become aware of what's available from watching these vids and develop a feel for how some of these things would help you. I've seen things I never thought of but once I saw it I can see the value such as Digital Performers Comp Tracks feature or Live 9's very hot new audio to midi conversion feature. There's some very cool stuff going on out there guys but you have to open your eyes to see it.
Real Band is free to most users while the big name DAW's are around $400-600. Given the price point it's unreasonable to try to make RB even remotely competitive with those programs but I completely agree a few seemingly basic enhancements would help a lot especially the VST/Jamstix thing. A big one is hardware control and another one is current ASIO support. We have to tell people occasionaly when they get a message saying another program is using the ASIO driver to close WMP or Biab or whatever because ASIO is a one trick pony. The problem is that's not true, ASIO 2.0 came out 3-4 years ago that allows for multiple hosts using it and now they just released ASIO 3. People using these other DAW's don't have that issue because they're all ASIO 2.0 compliant.
Without revamping the whole program, just these small fixes would help in keeping it current. Of course I say small, it could be these things are not small at all from a coding standpoint. As it is, being able to open Biab files and generate RT/RD's is huge for RB and will make it worthwhile using for a long time.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Then again, I've turned out some rather stellar sounding work using Powertracks and later on, Realband.
I just think that it is great to have so many available options as to softwares.
Find what YOU want and like, don't spend too much time on that decision, spend too much time on working with the software you've chosen and GET FINISHED PRODUCT IN THE CAN, I say.
--Mac
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