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In a previous post, the idea of receiving free professional advice vs. when to hire a music teacher was touched upon. Also - I have heard a number of musician-friends that often complain "restaurants won't pay musicians to play because "so many people are willing to do it for free", or "they only want to pay you based on how many customers you bring to the restaurant, I can't really control or depend on that." This question also relates to the very popularly discussed and viewed PG post "Could you live from making music". Now...I'd like to make some additional income to support my music habit (equipment toys and lessons are pretty expensive if you do both regularly, which is something I like to do  . But I never plan or hope to make enough $$$ to 'give up the day job' working in a school as an Occupational Therapist. Call it thinking small...or call it being realistic. Odds are low given small business startup statistics. I've often discussed the common "American Dream" fantasy of "Let's discover and Make a Product - and make some money together". PG has done this, I think (the man, that is - not the company per se). I would think he's the genius that had the first idea and pulled it all together - would love to hear his personal account. PG is one of my idols - wish I could have discovered and created such a successful company around music accompaniment generation - where people actually voluntarily spend money on a product and most (even the grumblers about certain issues) find it money well-spent. How many people pay money for things that they resent having had to pay (like accountants to help you do your taxes, or lawyers to help you defend against an unfair attack). I have some big ideas - but those are a dime a dozen. I have some small ideas that I think are attainable to make some $$$ to support the 'music addiction' - giving lessons, small performances, etc - maybe you have some other small ideas in addition to those mentioned on the "Can you live making music" post. I'd love to hear. ALl that said - I still haven't lost the pipe dream of inventing and marketing a new product. Many of my thoughts have already been shared on the site. If you'd like to partner and collaborate with me on any that have sparked your interest or imagination - shoot me a PM. And do weigh in on the 'giving away' topic, share your "small time goals", and whether you still have any "pipe dream, long-shot" goals (but don't give away your secret ideas - lest someone steel and do them first.  And remember, most successful people agree it was the struggle to the top that they enjoyed as much as getting there.
Last edited by Joe V; 01/13/13 06:39 AM.
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Some here give free professional advice daily.
Guess that tells you how they feel.
Also, I know people who became quite wealthy not by 'making music', but by helping others to do so. Performing is not the only aspect of music.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Here's some free advice to get you started.
1) Don't teach or perform unless you can do it to a professional standard. If people are paying money for your services, it's what they expect and deserve.
2) Don't buy any new "toys" until you've mastered the one's you've got. It'll keep down your costs and speed up the learning process.
ROG.
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I agree with ROG on his points.
I do strongly believe, even though it can have negative results, that it's my business to decide if I want to play for free or not. Most musicians though will look down on me and even try to black ball me for not banding together. It's an us against them thinking. I do not go along with that.
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Thanks for sharing - I agree with both of you, though the conversation can get more interesting when particular scenarios are posted. Gonna avoid these for now, but I'm sure you can even imagine such scenarios.
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Quote:
I do strongly believe, even though it can have negative results, that it's my business to decide if I want to play for free or not. Most musicians though will look down on me and even try to black ball me for not banding together. It's an us against them thinking. I do not go along with that.
I've been a member of the American Federation of Musicians since 1974, which is the year I first started earning my full time living playing music. I earned all of my income from music between 1974 and 1979 and have maintained my union membership even though I earn most of my money from another endeaver now. I disagree with your stance and can pretty much tell you that you don't help yourself by peddling your talent to commercial interests below the price where your music business can turn a profit. They are in business to make money and so should you be. Its one thing if you want to play for free for a charity but it is something else altogther to offer your services to a commerical money making interest free of charge. If you start teaching commercial operations that they can negotiate a fee below the union minimum, then they are going to low ball everyone out of the ability to earn a living. Its kind of like the mimimum wage except the musicians themselves have to enforce it instead of the government.
Whether you realize it or not, you are sending the message that you don't think your music is worth paying for.
Keith
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I guess it is time for me to go into my own personal reasons for deciding to freely share whatever it is that I've learned.
Long ago, I had a private Trumpet teacher who had a rather long list of students and his own office in an office building where the sign read, "Trumpet Lessons". He taught all levels from beginner through grad school students and even beyond, the only caveats being that he reserved the right to tell some student to stop coming to see him and, of course that the majority of students could afford the price of his lessons. Even so, he also would sometimes arrange other payment methods with parents and guardians and even the students themselves as he saw fit. A good man who, over the years, earned a well-desered reputation for being a great man.
Well, one day I showed up for my Saturday lesson and he informed me that, "Teaching is Learning" -- and proceeded to assign me with the duty by placing two younger guys who were just still starting out, still learning the basics, still working on things like being able to play the notes within the staff, learning to read music, embouchure, approach, all the stuff we have to learn. This was to take place on the same Saturdays that I would report for my own lesson. He moved my lesson time to earlier in the morning (ouch) and "my" two students were scheduled typically within a reasonable time after that. Of course, all this was done under the watchful eye and strict supervision of the boss.
I soon discovered that his initial statement, that teaching is learning, had implications to it that I could not have imagined. Sometimes it is necessary to be able to put something into words that we may have been able to do intuitively or without a lot of thinking into the whys, hows and wherefores, but that student needs this information. Merely having to think like that and then elocute in a way to get the point across is usually a new exercise for the teacher and can do a lot to help that teacher improve their own music agenda.
Flash Forward to now.
More than twenty years ago, was involved in that conversation which goes around quite a bit among Jazz Musicians, you know, the lament that Jazz is suppposed to be dying out, that there are far fewer places to play and the audiences are dwindling, life sucks, yada, yada, yada.
This is true, of course, but I began thinking about what could be the possible causes for such and, more importantly, whether or not the accepted and popular explanations had any merit. I immediately ruled out all of the "personal attack" or "demonization" rationales as being highly unlikely, blaming others for our own failures is commonplace and most often wrong assumption way of thinking.
And then it hit me.
There was a time in this great nation when the music arts were taught in the public schools, starting in the kindergartens and grade schools and continuing through to the high school level. This included every student being subjected to at least a singing or chorus class. There were even singing "textbooks" designed for that purpose. Once a week, the second grade (or any grade) class had to attend that choral class and participate in group singing, typically accompanied on a piano by a teacher.
And then there was the Band, Orchestra, "Stage" Band situation, complete with school provided instruments, lessons, rehearsals, all leading up to performance.
"An EDUCATED audience!" I said to myself.
When a lot more people knew a lot more about musics, when many of them had at least been exposed to the participation in what it takes to prepare and perform, regardless of whether or not that person kept with it at a pro level or not, their musical tastes were surely different than the tastes would be of someone who was never exposed to such.
So then I began an informal survey of sorts, began talking more with people who were in the audiences of the little venues and such I was performing in with various acts, and found out that the ones who were truly aficionados of jazz musics consisted of a vast majority of people who had both been exposed to such music education in their youth, many still played an instrument to some extent or another, and -- a rather amazing amount of them who were not pro players turned out to be members of other professions such as Doctors, University Professors, Lawyers, Small Business Owners, etc. -- people who were movers and shakers.
So, I have found, over the years, that an EDUCATED AUDIENCE, not necessarily "degreed," mind you, but an audience that knows a bit more than nothing much at all about music, is my target audience.
Don't become one of those musicians who sees a young guitar player, for example, watching you intently while onstage in an effort to see and learn -- and does something puerile like turn your back so they can't see what you're doing. (Yes, I've actually witnessed that example...)
Clark Terry's splendid autobiography really drives that point home.
"Teaching is Learning"
I think that far too many in this profession are singing lyrics like "Reach Out and Touch, Somebody's Hand, Make this World a Better Place, if You Can," while doing nothing at all other than singing that stoopid song.
--Mac
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I am also an AFofM member, since 1973. If it weren't for grant funding, I could not make a profit playing music in my region. This is a reasonably affluent area north of New York City, and yet clubs and restaurants pay the same for music that they did in the 1970s.
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I am very glad I brought the topic up; it is an important one with very real ramifications. I respect everyone's opinion - and very glad everyone is sharing and calmly discussing. Please let's keep this a discussion, let's not get personal, and certainly let's not attack each other in any way
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Mac..
thanks for that story and for your perspective on this topic.. FWIW, you are still teaching anybody who is willing to listen.
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Quote:
Don't buy any new "toys" until you've mastered the one's you've got. It'll keep down your costs and speed up the learning process.
ROG.
Rog,
I basically agree with this advice, especially for a young person. But as I approach retirement and the reduced income that goes with it, I find myself violating the second admonition. The irony of my life has always been that when I had money, I didn't have time to use it, and when I had time (unemployment etc) I had no money to do anything.
This time, my plan is to look ahead, anticipate what I will need in order to use my retirement to the hilt, then buy it now while I have the finances to do it, but not the time to explore it. The time will come later.
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Quote:
I am also an AFofM member, since 1973. If it weren't for grant funding, I could not make a profit playing music in my region. This is a reasonably affluent area north of New York City, and yet clubs and restaurants pay the same for music that they did in the 1970s .
...they pay such rates, in my opinion, BECAUSE THEY CAN - the supply and demand is such that the going rate has stayed the same. Keep in mind that many companies give 'product' away cheaply or for free, which really needs to be called "advertising". In fact, when someone plays for 'free', they really are getting something in return that is of value as equal to them as that cash is to the person relying on music 'for a living'. That's why they're doing it.
What also comes into play is people that do music for fun or as a hobby really want an audience, and can afford to play for free for the pure pleasure of playing in front of an audience. And the market is such that many audiences are just as happy hearing a 'skilled hobbyist' (these guys are sometimes as good as the 'full time professionals' - especially to the untrained ear).
Lastly - it's human nature to get items as cheaply as you can (within the law, that is, though some people have their own 'laws' which are different than those on the books). Every day you buy a closeout item for less than it cost the manufacturer to make - you are taking advantage of their mistake in estimating 'demand'. The result of their effort to minimize their loss results in a good deal for consumers, and stiffer competition for their competitors. And let's not forget that offering product at the best price you can get from your buyers is the CAPITALIST WAY.
What's your perspective on the business owners (e.g. restaurant or bar owners) position ? I would think they feel every time they can minimize an expense to offer a superior product - like offering dinner AND pleasant music instead of just dinner, they're offering something to stand out from their competition. Why not get musicians that will work as cheaply as possible based on the supply ? They may be in the process of having taken out loans to open the business, and really looking to play every angle they can to make the best of their success (does anyone know how competitive the restaurant business is, and the associated failure rate - I'm pretty sure it's very high).
Last edited by Joe V; 01/13/13 03:18 PM.
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Spinning off Mac's observation about performing for an informed audience.. (and this may take the discussion in a different direction... if so, sorry)
I want to start by saying that my loose definition of "talent" is the ability to do something that everybody else can't easily duplicate. (People who scribble on a canvas and call it art don't meet that definition of talent, but I digress.)
The problem with using backing tracks in a performance is that the audience is not informed enough to differentiate between somebody who bought karaoke tracks and sang along with them (requires marginal talent and almost anybody could do that... although the quality of the singing would be affected by talent or lack of it)
In most of our cases, though, there's more talent involved than the audience can see.
We've spent years learning how to use software, how to mix audio, how to play multiple instruments, how to sing, how to use MIDI to control gear, how to use the gear (vocal processors, effects, harmonizers etc) to work together seamlessly in a real time performance , so that no "gotchas" ruin the show, etc etc.
The thought occurred to me that through banter with the audience, we could educate them about why our act is different from a karaoke act, and why we made the decisions to lay the act out as we did. I think most audiences would find the explanations interesting, and by the end of the show they would be enlightened about how much work and talent it takes to bring such an act to their stage. With knowledge comes appreciation.
I guess what I'm saying is that if the audience in attendance is not already informed about music and about your presentation of it, it is in our power to educate them as part of the act.
And, getting back to the threads original question: as perceived value of your act increases, you should be able to charge more for it, and get it.
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the classic success story about giving product away is MS-DOS.
In the early days of the PC, MS-DOS was clearly inferior to most of the other options, notably Apple's OS. So they made arrangements with PC manufacturers and practically gave it away to get it into the hands and lives of almost everybody who had a PC.
Once people got used to it, they didn't want to endure another learning curve, and it became the de-facto standard OS. And that's when they started charging for updates. We now know how rich that tactic made Bill Gates.
He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
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Quote:
the classic success story about giving product away is MS-DOS.
In the early days of the PC, MS-DOS was clearly inferior to most of the other options, notably Apple's OS. So they made arrangements with PC manufacturers and practically gave it away to get it into the hands and lives of almost everybody who had a PC.
If IBM had not perceived that it had a problem with Apple encroaching on its turf in the business world, we would all be using Apples today and no one would have ever heard of Microsoft. IBM knew absouletely nothing about personal computers when it first went to Bill Gates. In fact, they thought that Gates program BASIC could run on a personal computer without an operating system, and Gates had to set them straight. Ultimately, IBM was in such a hurry, that after they failed to connect in an attempt to acquire use of CP/M, they signed with Gates to provide them an operating system without having him sign an exclusive use contract. Gates made a ton of money from IBM, which funded his cut rate offers to other computer makers. That coupled with Apple's refusal to license their software to anyone led to the predominance of MicroSoft. Another big thing that boosted Microsoft is that people wanted their desktop computers to talk to the big main frame down the hall with big blue's initials on it.
Keith
2026 Audiophile Windows 11 RYZEN THREADRIPPER 3960X 4.5GHZ 128 GB RAM 2 Nvidia RTX 3090s, Vegas,Acid,SoundForge,Izotope Production,Melodyne Studio,SONAR,3 Raven Mtis
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Back in the 60's, you could keep a 4-piece working for scale and make enough to make a meager living. People actually went out to hear live music. There were clubs everywhere. Bands flourished. Clubs flourished. A lot of great bands came out of those clubs.
Those days are gone forever.
Today, people simply don't value music, or musicians. Any guy who can scratch a needle across a record is considered a performer , and if he can string a bunch of loops together he's considered a producer.
Mac is right. Today's Gen-Xers didn't grow up playing an instrument in the school band. They grew up "playing" music with Guitar Hero. They are, for the most part, self-absorbed, vacuous, soulless lemmings devoid of any musical appreciation. It's a shame, but it is what it is.
Want to play for free? Fine. There are plenty of open mics to get your stage rush on and be a star. But when you play a normally paying gig for free, you are taking food out of the mouth of someone who has actually paid their dues.
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Today's Gen-Xers didn't grow up playing an instrument in the school band. They grew up "playing" music with Guitar Hero. They are, for the most part, self-absorbed, vacuous, soulless lemmings devoid of any musical appreciation. It's a shame, but it is what it is.
In my experience, even back in the day, there were plenty of "self-absorbed, vacuous, soulless lemmings"! And today I know plenty of sensational young musicians! Generally I really don't think people have changed all that much. The further we get from "the good ol' days" the better they look!
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Quote:
Quote:
the classic success story about giving product away is MS-DOS.
In the early days of the PC, MS-DOS was clearly inferior to most of the other options, notably Apple's OS. So they made arrangements with PC manufacturers and practically gave it away to get it into the hands and lives of almost everybody who had a PC.
If IBM had not perceived that it had a problem with Apple encroaching on its turf in the business world, we would all be using Apples today and no one would have ever heard of Microsoft. IBM knew absouletely nothing about personal computers when it first went to Bill Gates. In fact, they thought that Gates program BASIC could run on a personal computer without an operating system, and Gates had to set them straight. Ultimately, IBM was in such a hurry, that after they failed to connect in an attempt to acquire use of CP/M, they signed with Gates to provide them an operating system without having him sign an exclusive use contract. Gates made a ton of money from IBM, which funded his cut rate offers to other computer makers. That coupled with Apple's refusal to license their software to anyone led to the predominance of MicroSoft. Another big thing that boosted Microsoft is that people wanted their desktop computers to talk to the big main frame down the hall with big blue's initials on it.
You're right and if Apple had not given all those computers to schools for free/cheap, Apple would probably not be here today!
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I want to start by saying that my loose definition of "talent" is the ability to do something that everybody else can't easily duplicate. (People who scribble on a canvas and call it art don't meet that definition of talent, but I digress.)
We have this conversation at my house all the time! What is Art? It is kinda hard to pin down but I have come to understand that just because I don't see something as art does not mean that it is not art (except for me perhaps!)
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You guys forgot the part of the story where Bill Gates bailed his good friend Steve Jobs over at Apple out?
They might not even be here today had he not done that.
--Mac
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Check out all the new features in the redesigned Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac - Special Offers End at 11:59pm PDT on Friday, May 15th, 2026!
Order before 11:59pm PDT on Friday, May 15th and SAVE up to 50% on most Band-in-a-Box® version 2026 for Mac Upgrade packages... and that's not all! With your version 2026 for Mac purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons FREE! Upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks... that's 222 NEW RealTracks available with version Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac!
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® today for as little as $49! Check out the Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all available purchase options.
Learn more about the Free Bonus PAK and 49-PAK here.
If you have any questions about which package is the best option for you, just let us know. We're here to help!
202 New RealTracks Released with Band-in-a-Box 2026!
With Band-in-a-Box® 2026, we've released 202 incredible new RealTracks (in sets 468-488) in a variety of genres—featuring your most requested styles!
Jazz, Funk & World (Sets 468-475):
Our new jazz, funk & blues RealTracks include a groovin’ collection of RealTracks and RealDrums! These include more requested “soul jazz” RealTracks featuring artists Neil Swainson (bass), Charles Treadway (organ), Brent Mason (guitar), and Wes Little (drums). There are new “smooth jazz” styles (4), which include a RealTracks first: muted trumpet, as well as slick new smooth jazz brushes options for drums. Blues lovers will be thrilled—there are more “classic acoustic blues” styles, including guitar (5), bass (4), and drums (10) with blues master Colin Linden, featuring understated and tasty background acoustic soloing, plus brushes drums and acoustic bass. There are also new electric blues RealTracks, including electric blues with PG favorite Johnny Hiland (3) and soulful electric slide guitar from Colin Linden (4). If you love funk & gospel, there are great new options this year, including gospel organ (3) from Charles Treadway, as well as new funk, tango, and rock ’n’ roll drums (3) and bass (1). And for big, bold arrangements, we have uptempo soul horns (4) featuring a three-part hip horn section with options for a full mix or stems of each individual horn — plus an accompanying rhythm section (4) of drums, bass, guitar, and electric piano!
Rock & Pop (Sets 476–482):
Our new rock & pop RealTracks bring a powerful mix of requested favorites, fresh genres, and modern chart-inspired styles! We have more of our popular “Producer Layered Acoustic Guitars (15)” featuring Band-in-a-Box favorite Brent Mason. We’ve continued our much-requested disco styles (10), and added new Celtic guitar (5) with a more basic, accessible approach than our previous Drop-D or DADGAD offerings. There are also highly requested yacht rock styles (17), inspired by the smooth, polished soft-rock sound of the late ’70s and early ’80s — laid-back grooves, silky electric pianos, warm textures, elegant harmonic movement, and pristine production aesthetics. Fans of heavier styles will love our new glam metal (13), capturing the flashy, high-energy sound of ’80s arena-ready guitar rock. We also have a set of rootsy modern-folk rock (18), with a warm, organic sound combining contemporary folk textures and driving acoustic strumming. And we’ve added lots of new modern pop styles (16) — the kinds of sounds you’re hearing on the radio today, featuring exciting new drums, synths, and cutting-edge RealTracks arrangements.
Country, & Americana (Sets 483–488):
Our new country & Americana RealTracks deliver a rich collection of acoustic, electric, and roots-inspired styles! We have new country pop (9) with legendary guitarist Brent Mason. There is also a potpourri (14) of bouzouki, guitars, banjo, and more, perfect for adding texture and character to contemporary acoustic arrangements. We’ve added funky country guitar (5) with PG favorite Brent Mason, along with classic pedal steel styles (5) featuring steel great Doug Jernigan. There are more country songwriter styles (8) that provide intimate, rootsy foundations for storytelling and modern Americana writing. Finally, we have “background soloing” acoustic guitar (12) with Brent Mason — simpler, but still very tasty acoustic lines designed to sit beautifully behind vocals or act as a subtle standalone solo part.
Check out all the 202 new RealTracks (in sets 468-488)!
And, if you are looking for more, the 2026 49-PAK (for $49) includes an impressive collection of 20 bonus RealTracks, featuring exciting and inspiring additions to add to your RealTracks library. You'll get new country-rhythm guitar styles from PG Music favorites Johnny Hiland and Brent Mason, along with modern-pop grooves that capture today’s radio-ready sound! There are also new indie-folk styles with guitar, bass, 6-string bass used as a high-chording instrument, acoustic guitar, and banjo. Plus, dedicated "cymbal fills" RealDrums provide an added layer that work very well with low-key folky styles with other percussion.
The 2026 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2026 49-PAK!
2026 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
With your version 2026 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
- MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
- Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
- Playable RealTracks Set 5
- RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
- SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
- iOS Android Band-in-a-Box® App
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
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