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"Naw, baby, I LIKE the way your cheeks leave those endearing tracks along the beach sand..."
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OK I confess. I always get paid for playing. Just not always $$$$$$$$$$$$.We place too much emphases on $$$$$$$$$$ as the only means of compensation.
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Joe, I'm going to dust off my old chops here. In addition to making a living touring North America in the 70's I came off the road and went to work at one of the larger booking agents as a union subagent. Everything we did was union contracts. I know what it takes and how to sell an act.
One question. Are you a good singer and a charismatic performer? By good I mean American Idol good. You wouldn't believe how good some of the acts I used to book were. If your vocal and performing chops are that good then great, I could put you to work right now doing singles assuming you have your instrumental act together too. Not a singer? Forget it.
My good friend Eddie Greely who died a few years ago was a graduate of the UCLA School of Music. His father George was a very famous movie orchestrator in the 40's. You can Google him. Eddie had perfect pitch and could sing like Sinatra plus do classic rock like Mustang Sally and the like. Shortly before he died he was making about 3,500-4,000 per month doing singles in retirement homes for $200 each. Since this is SoCal he was driving all over the place from Sherman Oaks in the valley down to Newport Beach sometimes doing two gigs per day. He was putting 25-30K on his car a year. He could only do that because of his skills as a pianist and a vocalist. He also worked in a classic rock show group at night on the weekends but those gigs were only occasional. Doing a single is the only way to make a living but there's not much fun in it. No buddies on stage to interact with and all that.
People play for free because if they didn't they wouldn't get to play out at all. I know the union line very well Keith but the union is basically dead out here.
Music is a performance art, without an audience what's the point? There's thousands of highly skilled music grads coming out of schools every year chasing very few paying gigs. If you're not an Eddie Greely or Johhny, oh yeah I didn't tell you about him, you have no chance. Johnny is even better than Eddie but he gave it up and is making about 150K as a longshoreman in the port of Long Beach. Johnny toured with some big name rockers as a drummer plus plays his butt off on guitar and man, what a voice. I mean a seriously killer voice. Gave it up in the mid 80's, no money any more.
That's it in a nutshell.
The dichotomy between all those music grads and yet saying live music is dead is something isn't it? All these Youtube vids of child phenoms proves good music is not dead but yet it is dead as far as local places to hear it or play it live is concerned. It's evolved to the same status as classical music. Jazz will always be around, it will continue to be taught but the only way you hear it is on the one radio station out of dozens that still plays it or the occasional big concert at Royce Hall or the Hollywood Bowl.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Quote:
Often, people say things that have hidden messages - those messages can be positive or negative.
...Just my opinion...or as is often said on this site,....Just Sayin'
Yup, that little "disclaimer" makes it alright to say "snarky" things it seems, reminds me of the "Who, Me?" kid...
Quote:
Liars abound. But those who tell the truth are out here as well. As with all things, you can tell them apart by the fruits that they bear.
Or the response they give.....
Joanne, we gave a listen to your 2 originals, and we have to say keep it up! They sound good to us, so we bookmarked your page to "keep an eye on ya."
I made my living playing live for over 30 + years, and am only "out of it" because of health reasons, both mine & the better half's.. In that time I "undercut" a lot of folks because..
1. It is called "The Music Business", not "The Music Charity". Like any biz, I hustled, paid my taxes, and made a profit. They ones I "undercut" were folks who thought their worth was way more than it was...you can only go so far on rep, and when arrogance & snobbery shows up because of it most folks would rather play with someone else.
2. I was "freelance", both live & studio. I did my job, showed up on time, helped with load in & out, and went the extra mile to make any band I played with feel comfortable. When folks hired me they knew that the night was going to go smoothly, up until the load out was complete. The ones I "took jobs from" mainly showed up, played, packed their stuff & held their hand out....
Again, if you are in "The Music Business" you need to treat it as such, or get left behind whining about how bad it is. For a few years a lot of us rented halls at the slower "animal clubs" & played for free while the club ran the bar. It helped the club, keep us in practice, and when things turned around who do you think were the best paid musicians?
I also notice that a lot of folks have not mentioned how BiaB & Real Tracks put musicians out of work? I know Norton's argument about midi, but truth be told it still sounds like midi no matter what anyone does to it. There is not one demo of midi backing tracks that would tempt me to sit thru 4 sets in a club. Real Tracks, on the other hand, makes seeing a 1 or 2 man band more enticing, and bearable.
So, is using BiaB undercutting musicians job's? And if so, why is their not some negative comments aimed at PGMusic?
IMHO it is because the product speaks for itself, and since it gives everyone the ability to play with "real musicians" that don't have attitudes, it is accepted.
Just Sayin'....   
i5 3.20GHz, 32gb RAM, 1tb SSD OS, 12tb HDD, 4gb gForce vid card, 32" monitor, Audient id44, Win10 x64, BiaB/RB 2023, Reaper 6,IK Multimedia Total Studio 3.5 MAX, Waves 10
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Quite a few acts mix real stringed instruments, guitars, bass, also sometimes real horns, with keyboards today and more often than in the past, those keyboards are... MIDI keyboards.
Just sayin'...
--Mac
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Doesn't at some extent there seem to be a pendulum swing between:
1.) the acoustic musicians that don't use any electricity at all to play
2.) the DJ, who uses electricity to play EVERYTHING.
Those of us in between that use some combination of the two - and the closer you get to using more sequencing, electronics, and pre-programming, the closer you are coming to ( gasp !!!...) the DJ !!!
Even if you distinguish by the 'amount of talent' it takes to do those things in between, there are a number of DJ's who take 'performance art' to a whole new level, and they consider what they do to take quite a bit of talent (in a different sense) also. They're often using MIDI controllers or sequencers, and doing much more than just spinning vinyl or CD's as in 'the good old days' as I'm sure some of them refer.
And whether or not it is your cup of tea, the DJ can make the most music with the widest variation for the lowest cost. For those that more just listen and dance - just as good. Different art, different talent, the people paying don't typically know, care enough, or can afford the alternative.
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Quote:
Doesn't at some extent there seem to be a pendulum swing between:
1.) the acoustic musicians that don't use any electricity at all to play
What venue you go to where there is not a MIC in front of 'em?
The acoustic musician who ignores use of mic, type of mic, mic positioning, PA settings, PA type, Hall Size, and likely a few other things as well, is asking for it to come out bad.
--Mac
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Quote:
What venue you go to where there is not a MIC in front of 'em?
ok - you got me on semantics, I mean there is no electricity creating their initial timbres or sequencing....and you can probably get me on that too - but I'm sure you know what I mean....
wait...I did mean without the mic - the mics would be the next grade up after 1 - say 1a
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Quote:
Doesn't at some extent there seem to be a pendulum swing between:
1.) the acoustic musicians that don't use any electricity at all to play
2.) the DJ, who uses electricity to play EVERYTHING.
Those of us in between that use some combination of the two - and the closer you get to using more sequencing, electronics, and pre-programming, the closer you are coming to ( gasp !!!...) the DJ !!!
Even if you distinguish by the 'amount of talent' it takes to do those things in between, there are a number of DJ's who take 'performance art' to a whole new level, and they consider what they do to take quite a bit of talent (in a different sense) also. They're often using MIDI controllers or sequencers, and doing much more than just spinning vinyl or CD's as in 'the good old days' as I'm sure some of them refer.
And whether or not it is your cup of tea, the DJ can make the most music with the widest variation for the lowest cost. For those that more just listen and dance - just as good. Different art, different talent, the people paying don't typically know, care enough, or can afford the alternative.
Joe, I was a little reserved about the whole looping thing but after seeing someone live on stage create 5 or 6 backing tracks in real time and then loop those and sing over top...well I was pretty impressed! (I know that is not DJing but...)
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Quote:
I also notice that a lot of folks have not mentioned how BiaB & Real Tracks put musicians out of work?
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I've worked for surprise. On spec.
I've worked on a handshake.
I've worked on a 'deal', often bad.
I've worked for no pay.
I've worked for pay.
I've been stiffed.
I've been misquoted.
I've been mislead.
I've worked to help people for pay.
I've worked to help people because...
I've worked for what they could afford...
I've worked for charity...
I've worked to feed 7 mouths.
I've worked to stay alive.
And
I've worked because I love it, at any cost.
I worked to keep people safe and warm.
now,
I work at not sitting around waiting for the end.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Quote:
I've worked for surprise. On spec.
I've worked on a handshake.
I've worked on a 'deal', often bad.
I've worked for no pay.
I've worked for pay.
I've been stiffed.
I've been misquoted.
I've been mislead.
I've worked to help people for pay.
I've worked to help people because...
I've worked for what they could afford...
I've worked for charity...
I've worked to feed 7 mouths.
I've worked to stay alive.
And
I've worked because I love it, at any cost.
I worked to keep people safe and warm.
now,
I work at not sitting around waiting for the end.
Very profound John.
Later,
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Quote:
I also notice that a lot of folks have not mentioned how BiaB & Real Tracks put musicians out of work?
I'm of the opinion that BIAB and RealTracks could actually reverse the current trend and put a lot of musicians BACK to work. I think it is the shape of things to come, the most common and maybe best alternative for performing musicians going forward.
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Quote:
Even if you distinguish by the 'amount of talent' it takes to do those things in between, there are a number of DJ's who take 'performance art' to a whole new level, and they consider what they do to take quite a bit of talent (in a different sense) also. They're often using MIDI controllers or sequencers, and doing much more than just spinning vinyl or CD's as in 'the good old days' as I'm sure some of them refer.
And whether or not it is your cup of tea, the DJ can make the most music with the widest variation for the lowest cost. For those that more just listen and dance - just as good. Different art, different talent, the people paying don't typically know, care enough, or can afford the alternative.
based on what you just said, wouldn't it be a GOOD thing for a musician to be more like a DJ?
FWIW, I DO think that it takes talent, (or at least skill) to be a good DJ. They have to do a lot of the same things musicians do, such as :
Buy gear
learn to use it
learn to work a crowd
learn how to run a small business
know a lot about the songs they're presenting to the audience
own a vehicle capable of hauling the gear around
have muscles capable of schlepping the gear in and out of gigs
learn enough about MIDI to run the light show
etc
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"MUSICIAN", "BAND", "DJ", "KARAOKE", "SINGER"... those words are too specific for me.
I like the word "ENTERTAINER". It covers anything you can do to entertain an audience for pay.
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Nah, that definition would include clowns ...
and I refuse to be a member of any group that would have me as a member
/*I miss groucho*/
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Quote:
”I like the word "ENTERTAINER". It covers anything you can do to entertain an audience for pay.”
Quote:
Nah, that definition would include clowns ...
Unfortunately, there have been lots of “clowns” in the music biz for years. Alice Cooper, Kiss, Lady Gaga, etc. Acts that point out the fact that it’s no longer about the music. It’s about the “spectacle”.
I’ve never been a fan of “spectacles”.
Personally, I wouldn’t want to be thought of as an “entertainer” if I were performing. That title can run the gamut from Lady Gaga to a live sex show to someone who defecates on stage. (Ooops, ... I left out pulling a rabbit out of a hat).
I’d rather be thought of as a musician or a singer/songwriter.
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I LOVE this thread. It is so refreshing to know that I am not the only one out there with all these questions, thoughts and experiences. I have never been part of a music forum before. Have probably been in a vacuum all these years!. John Conley, what you have done is absolutely great. I aspire to that. Pat, I also love your list of what DJs and musicians have to do. I am going to put some of those things on my to-do list.
jcspro40, thanks for giving my songs a listen. They are just a start I know but I am going to persevere.
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Quote:
Quote:
”I like the word "ENTERTAINER". It covers anything you can do to entertain an audience for pay.”
Quote:
Nah, that definition would include clowns ...
Unfortunately, there have been lots of “clowns” in the music biz for years. Alice Cooper, Kiss, Lady Gaga, etc. Acts that point out the fact that it’s no longer about the music. It’s about the “spectacle”.
I’ve never been a fan of “spectacles”.
Personally, I wouldn’t want to be thought of as an “entertainer” if I were performing. That title can run the gamut from Lady Gaga to a live sex show to someone who defecates on stage. (Ooops, ... I left out pulling a rabbit out of a hat).
I’d rather be thought of as a musician or a singer/songwriter.
Hey, thanks for chiming in on this Bob.. I hoped you would! You always have an intelligent point to make on any topic.
Yes, you are one who always weighs in on the "artist" side of the equation. You would rather play to a room with 20 people who actually understand what you're doing and appreciate it than to a stadium full of morons who only showed up because there was also a singing monkey act. I respect your position... but I can't take it because I just don't have the ARTISTIC talent to go that route. I have to factor in some technical knowledge to compensate for having less artistic knowledge.
I understand that purists like you will tend to look down on people like me who pursue music as a business rather than as an art. But I also know there is NO way to pursue anything in a way that pleases everybody, so we all gotta pursue this life with whatever strengths and weaknesses we have. I don't have your talent, but I do have some business sense. I can make that work for me more easily than I can duplicate your proficiency.
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and, speaking of clowns...
I agree wholehearted with Bob's comments about the "clowns" in the industry.BUT...
the starving artist is a long-standing cultural cliche. You often hear of killer musicians playing to a room of 20 people with no cover charge,so they put out a tip jar... whereas Lada Gaga, Alice Cooper and other musical "franchises" play to sold out stadiums and the tickets weren't cheap.
If we judge by income, a superficial look would indicate that the clowns are winning.
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Last Chance! The Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® Special Ends Today (May 31, 2026) at 11:59pm PDT!
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Our new rock & pop RealTracks bring a powerful mix of requested favorites, fresh genres, and modern chart-inspired styles! We have more of our popular “Producer Layered Acoustic Guitars (15)” featuring Band-in-a-Box favorite Brent Mason. We’ve continued our much-requested disco styles (10), and added new Celtic guitar (5) with a more basic, accessible approach than our previous Drop-D or DADGAD offerings. There are also highly requested yacht rock styles (17), inspired by the smooth, polished soft-rock sound of the late ’70s and early ’80s — laid-back grooves, silky electric pianos, warm textures, elegant harmonic movement, and pristine production aesthetics. Fans of heavier styles will love our new glam metal (13), capturing the flashy, high-energy sound of ’80s arena-ready guitar rock. We also have a set of rootsy modern-folk rock (18), with a warm, organic sound combining contemporary folk textures and driving acoustic strumming. And we’ve added lots of new modern pop styles (16) — the kinds of sounds you’re hearing on the radio today, featuring exciting new drums, synths, and cutting-edge RealTracks arrangements.
Country, & Americana (Sets 483–488):
Our new country & Americana RealTracks deliver a rich collection of acoustic, electric, and roots-inspired styles! We have new country pop (9) with legendary guitarist Brent Mason. There is also a potpourri (14) of bouzouki, guitars, banjo, and more, perfect for adding texture and character to contemporary acoustic arrangements. We’ve added funky country guitar (5) with PG favorite Brent Mason, along with classic pedal steel styles (5) featuring steel great Doug Jernigan. There are more country songwriter styles (8) that provide intimate, rootsy foundations for storytelling and modern Americana writing. Finally, we have “background soloing” acoustic guitar (12) with Brent Mason — simpler, but still very tasty acoustic lines designed to sit beautifully behind vocals or act as a subtle standalone solo part.
Check out all the 202 new RealTracks (in sets 468-488)!
And, if you are looking for more, the 2026 49-PAK (for $49) includes an impressive collection of 20 bonus RealTracks, featuring exciting and inspiring additions to add to your RealTracks library. You'll get new country-rhythm guitar styles from PG Music favorites Johnny Hiland and Brent Mason, along with modern-pop grooves that capture today’s radio-ready sound! There are also new indie-folk styles with guitar, bass, 6-string bass used as a high-chording instrument, acoustic guitar, and banjo. Plus, dedicated "cymbal fills" RealDrums provide an added layer that work very well with low-key folky styles with other percussion.
The 2026 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2026 49-PAK!
2026 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
With your version 2026 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
- MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
- Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
- Playable RealTracks Set 5
- RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
- SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
- iOS Android Band-in-a-Box® App
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
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