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"Naw, baby, I LIKE the way your cheeks leave those endearing tracks along the beach sand..."
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OK I confess. I always get paid for playing. Just not always $$$$$$$$$$$$.We place too much emphases on $$$$$$$$$$ as the only means of compensation.
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Joe, I'm going to dust off my old chops here. In addition to making a living touring North America in the 70's I came off the road and went to work at one of the larger booking agents as a union subagent. Everything we did was union contracts. I know what it takes and how to sell an act.
One question. Are you a good singer and a charismatic performer? By good I mean American Idol good. You wouldn't believe how good some of the acts I used to book were. If your vocal and performing chops are that good then great, I could put you to work right now doing singles assuming you have your instrumental act together too. Not a singer? Forget it.
My good friend Eddie Greely who died a few years ago was a graduate of the UCLA School of Music. His father George was a very famous movie orchestrator in the 40's. You can Google him. Eddie had perfect pitch and could sing like Sinatra plus do classic rock like Mustang Sally and the like. Shortly before he died he was making about 3,500-4,000 per month doing singles in retirement homes for $200 each. Since this is SoCal he was driving all over the place from Sherman Oaks in the valley down to Newport Beach sometimes doing two gigs per day. He was putting 25-30K on his car a year. He could only do that because of his skills as a pianist and a vocalist. He also worked in a classic rock show group at night on the weekends but those gigs were only occasional. Doing a single is the only way to make a living but there's not much fun in it. No buddies on stage to interact with and all that.
People play for free because if they didn't they wouldn't get to play out at all. I know the union line very well Keith but the union is basically dead out here.
Music is a performance art, without an audience what's the point? There's thousands of highly skilled music grads coming out of schools every year chasing very few paying gigs. If you're not an Eddie Greely or Johhny, oh yeah I didn't tell you about him, you have no chance. Johnny is even better than Eddie but he gave it up and is making about 150K as a longshoreman in the port of Long Beach. Johnny toured with some big name rockers as a drummer plus plays his butt off on guitar and man, what a voice. I mean a seriously killer voice. Gave it up in the mid 80's, no money any more.
That's it in a nutshell.
The dichotomy between all those music grads and yet saying live music is dead is something isn't it? All these Youtube vids of child phenoms proves good music is not dead but yet it is dead as far as local places to hear it or play it live is concerned. It's evolved to the same status as classical music. Jazz will always be around, it will continue to be taught but the only way you hear it is on the one radio station out of dozens that still plays it or the occasional big concert at Royce Hall or the Hollywood Bowl.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Quote:
Often, people say things that have hidden messages - those messages can be positive or negative.
...Just my opinion...or as is often said on this site,....Just Sayin'
Yup, that little "disclaimer" makes it alright to say "snarky" things it seems, reminds me of the "Who, Me?" kid...
Quote:
Liars abound. But those who tell the truth are out here as well. As with all things, you can tell them apart by the fruits that they bear.
Or the response they give.....
Joanne, we gave a listen to your 2 originals, and we have to say keep it up! They sound good to us, so we bookmarked your page to "keep an eye on ya."
I made my living playing live for over 30 + years, and am only "out of it" because of health reasons, both mine & the better half's.. In that time I "undercut" a lot of folks because..
1. It is called "The Music Business", not "The Music Charity". Like any biz, I hustled, paid my taxes, and made a profit. They ones I "undercut" were folks who thought their worth was way more than it was...you can only go so far on rep, and when arrogance & snobbery shows up because of it most folks would rather play with someone else.
2. I was "freelance", both live & studio. I did my job, showed up on time, helped with load in & out, and went the extra mile to make any band I played with feel comfortable. When folks hired me they knew that the night was going to go smoothly, up until the load out was complete. The ones I "took jobs from" mainly showed up, played, packed their stuff & held their hand out....
Again, if you are in "The Music Business" you need to treat it as such, or get left behind whining about how bad it is. For a few years a lot of us rented halls at the slower "animal clubs" & played for free while the club ran the bar. It helped the club, keep us in practice, and when things turned around who do you think were the best paid musicians?
I also notice that a lot of folks have not mentioned how BiaB & Real Tracks put musicians out of work? I know Norton's argument about midi, but truth be told it still sounds like midi no matter what anyone does to it. There is not one demo of midi backing tracks that would tempt me to sit thru 4 sets in a club. Real Tracks, on the other hand, makes seeing a 1 or 2 man band more enticing, and bearable.
So, is using BiaB undercutting musicians job's? And if so, why is their not some negative comments aimed at PGMusic?
IMHO it is because the product speaks for itself, and since it gives everyone the ability to play with "real musicians" that don't have attitudes, it is accepted.
Just Sayin'....   
i5 3.20GHz, 32gb RAM, 1tb SSD OS, 12tb HDD, 4gb gForce vid card, 32" monitor, Audient id44, Win10 x64, BiaB/RB 2023, Reaper 6,IK Multimedia Total Studio 3.5 MAX, Waves 10
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Quite a few acts mix real stringed instruments, guitars, bass, also sometimes real horns, with keyboards today and more often than in the past, those keyboards are... MIDI keyboards.
Just sayin'...
--Mac
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Doesn't at some extent there seem to be a pendulum swing between:
1.) the acoustic musicians that don't use any electricity at all to play
2.) the DJ, who uses electricity to play EVERYTHING.
Those of us in between that use some combination of the two - and the closer you get to using more sequencing, electronics, and pre-programming, the closer you are coming to ( gasp !!!...) the DJ !!!
Even if you distinguish by the 'amount of talent' it takes to do those things in between, there are a number of DJ's who take 'performance art' to a whole new level, and they consider what they do to take quite a bit of talent (in a different sense) also. They're often using MIDI controllers or sequencers, and doing much more than just spinning vinyl or CD's as in 'the good old days' as I'm sure some of them refer.
And whether or not it is your cup of tea, the DJ can make the most music with the widest variation for the lowest cost. For those that more just listen and dance - just as good. Different art, different talent, the people paying don't typically know, care enough, or can afford the alternative.
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Quote:
Doesn't at some extent there seem to be a pendulum swing between:
1.) the acoustic musicians that don't use any electricity at all to play
What venue you go to where there is not a MIC in front of 'em?
The acoustic musician who ignores use of mic, type of mic, mic positioning, PA settings, PA type, Hall Size, and likely a few other things as well, is asking for it to come out bad.
--Mac
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Quote:
What venue you go to where there is not a MIC in front of 'em?
ok - you got me on semantics, I mean there is no electricity creating their initial timbres or sequencing....and you can probably get me on that too - but I'm sure you know what I mean....
wait...I did mean without the mic - the mics would be the next grade up after 1 - say 1a
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Quote:
Doesn't at some extent there seem to be a pendulum swing between:
1.) the acoustic musicians that don't use any electricity at all to play
2.) the DJ, who uses electricity to play EVERYTHING.
Those of us in between that use some combination of the two - and the closer you get to using more sequencing, electronics, and pre-programming, the closer you are coming to ( gasp !!!...) the DJ !!!
Even if you distinguish by the 'amount of talent' it takes to do those things in between, there are a number of DJ's who take 'performance art' to a whole new level, and they consider what they do to take quite a bit of talent (in a different sense) also. They're often using MIDI controllers or sequencers, and doing much more than just spinning vinyl or CD's as in 'the good old days' as I'm sure some of them refer.
And whether or not it is your cup of tea, the DJ can make the most music with the widest variation for the lowest cost. For those that more just listen and dance - just as good. Different art, different talent, the people paying don't typically know, care enough, or can afford the alternative.
Joe, I was a little reserved about the whole looping thing but after seeing someone live on stage create 5 or 6 backing tracks in real time and then loop those and sing over top...well I was pretty impressed! (I know that is not DJing but...)
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Quote:
I also notice that a lot of folks have not mentioned how BiaB & Real Tracks put musicians out of work?
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I've worked for surprise. On spec.
I've worked on a handshake.
I've worked on a 'deal', often bad.
I've worked for no pay.
I've worked for pay.
I've been stiffed.
I've been misquoted.
I've been mislead.
I've worked to help people for pay.
I've worked to help people because...
I've worked for what they could afford...
I've worked for charity...
I've worked to feed 7 mouths.
I've worked to stay alive.
And
I've worked because I love it, at any cost.
I worked to keep people safe and warm.
now,
I work at not sitting around waiting for the end.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Quote:
I've worked for surprise. On spec.
I've worked on a handshake.
I've worked on a 'deal', often bad.
I've worked for no pay.
I've worked for pay.
I've been stiffed.
I've been misquoted.
I've been mislead.
I've worked to help people for pay.
I've worked to help people because...
I've worked for what they could afford...
I've worked for charity...
I've worked to feed 7 mouths.
I've worked to stay alive.
And
I've worked because I love it, at any cost.
I worked to keep people safe and warm.
now,
I work at not sitting around waiting for the end.
Very profound John.
Later,
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Quote:
I also notice that a lot of folks have not mentioned how BiaB & Real Tracks put musicians out of work?
I'm of the opinion that BIAB and RealTracks could actually reverse the current trend and put a lot of musicians BACK to work. I think it is the shape of things to come, the most common and maybe best alternative for performing musicians going forward.
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Quote:
Even if you distinguish by the 'amount of talent' it takes to do those things in between, there are a number of DJ's who take 'performance art' to a whole new level, and they consider what they do to take quite a bit of talent (in a different sense) also. They're often using MIDI controllers or sequencers, and doing much more than just spinning vinyl or CD's as in 'the good old days' as I'm sure some of them refer.
And whether or not it is your cup of tea, the DJ can make the most music with the widest variation for the lowest cost. For those that more just listen and dance - just as good. Different art, different talent, the people paying don't typically know, care enough, or can afford the alternative.
based on what you just said, wouldn't it be a GOOD thing for a musician to be more like a DJ?
FWIW, I DO think that it takes talent, (or at least skill) to be a good DJ. They have to do a lot of the same things musicians do, such as :
Buy gear
learn to use it
learn to work a crowd
learn how to run a small business
know a lot about the songs they're presenting to the audience
own a vehicle capable of hauling the gear around
have muscles capable of schlepping the gear in and out of gigs
learn enough about MIDI to run the light show
etc
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"MUSICIAN", "BAND", "DJ", "KARAOKE", "SINGER"... those words are too specific for me.
I like the word "ENTERTAINER". It covers anything you can do to entertain an audience for pay.
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Nah, that definition would include clowns ...
and I refuse to be a member of any group that would have me as a member
/*I miss groucho*/
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Quote:
”I like the word "ENTERTAINER". It covers anything you can do to entertain an audience for pay.”
Quote:
Nah, that definition would include clowns ...
Unfortunately, there have been lots of “clowns” in the music biz for years. Alice Cooper, Kiss, Lady Gaga, etc. Acts that point out the fact that it’s no longer about the music. It’s about the “spectacle”.
I’ve never been a fan of “spectacles”.
Personally, I wouldn’t want to be thought of as an “entertainer” if I were performing. That title can run the gamut from Lady Gaga to a live sex show to someone who defecates on stage. (Ooops, ... I left out pulling a rabbit out of a hat).
I’d rather be thought of as a musician or a singer/songwriter.
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I LOVE this thread. It is so refreshing to know that I am not the only one out there with all these questions, thoughts and experiences. I have never been part of a music forum before. Have probably been in a vacuum all these years!. John Conley, what you have done is absolutely great. I aspire to that. Pat, I also love your list of what DJs and musicians have to do. I am going to put some of those things on my to-do list.
jcspro40, thanks for giving my songs a listen. They are just a start I know but I am going to persevere.
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Quote:
Quote:
”I like the word "ENTERTAINER". It covers anything you can do to entertain an audience for pay.”
Quote:
Nah, that definition would include clowns ...
Unfortunately, there have been lots of “clowns” in the music biz for years. Alice Cooper, Kiss, Lady Gaga, etc. Acts that point out the fact that it’s no longer about the music. It’s about the “spectacle”.
I’ve never been a fan of “spectacles”.
Personally, I wouldn’t want to be thought of as an “entertainer” if I were performing. That title can run the gamut from Lady Gaga to a live sex show to someone who defecates on stage. (Ooops, ... I left out pulling a rabbit out of a hat).
I’d rather be thought of as a musician or a singer/songwriter.
Hey, thanks for chiming in on this Bob.. I hoped you would! You always have an intelligent point to make on any topic.
Yes, you are one who always weighs in on the "artist" side of the equation. You would rather play to a room with 20 people who actually understand what you're doing and appreciate it than to a stadium full of morons who only showed up because there was also a singing monkey act. I respect your position... but I can't take it because I just don't have the ARTISTIC talent to go that route. I have to factor in some technical knowledge to compensate for having less artistic knowledge.
I understand that purists like you will tend to look down on people like me who pursue music as a business rather than as an art. But I also know there is NO way to pursue anything in a way that pleases everybody, so we all gotta pursue this life with whatever strengths and weaknesses we have. I don't have your talent, but I do have some business sense. I can make that work for me more easily than I can duplicate your proficiency.
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and, speaking of clowns...
I agree wholehearted with Bob's comments about the "clowns" in the industry.BUT...
the starving artist is a long-standing cultural cliche. You often hear of killer musicians playing to a room of 20 people with no cover charge,so they put out a tip jar... whereas Lada Gaga, Alice Cooper and other musical "franchises" play to sold out stadiums and the tickets weren't cheap.
If we judge by income, a superficial look would indicate that the clowns are winning.
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Video: New User Interface (GUI)
Join Tobin as he takes you on a tour of the new user interface in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®! This modern GUI redesign offers a sleek new look with updated toolbars, refreshed windows, and a smoother workflow. The brand-new side toolbar puts track selection, the MultiPicker Library, and other essential tools right at your fingertips. Plus, our upgraded Multi-View lets you layer multiple windows without overlap, giving you a highly flexible workspace. Many windows—including Tracks, Piano Roll, and more—have been redesigned for improved usability and a cleaner, more intuitive interface, and more!
Watch the video.
You can see all the 2026 videos on our forum!
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Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
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Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 21 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
Introducing XPro Styles PAK 10 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 10 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 28 RealTracks and RealDrums!
Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
Here’s just a small sampling of what you can look forward to in XPro Styles PAK 10: Soft indie folk worship songs, bumpin’ country boogies, gospel praise breaks, hard rockin’ pop, funky disco grooves, smooth Latin jazz pop, bossa nova fusion, western swing, alternative hip-hop, cool country funk, and much more!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 10 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 10 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Introducing Xtra Styles PAK 21 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest Xtra Styles PAK installment—the all new Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher)!
Rejoice, one and all, for Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box® is here! We’re serving up 200 brand spankin’ new styles to delight your musical taste buds! The first three courses are the classics you’ve come to know and love, including offerings from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, but, not to be outdone, this year’s fourth course is bro country! A wide ranging genre, you can find everything from hip-hop, uptempo outlaw country, hard hitting rock, funk, and even electronica, all with that familiar bro country flair. The dinner bell has been rung, pickup up Xtra Styles PAK 21 today!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Energetic folk rock, raucous train beats, fast country boogies, acid jazz grooves, laid-back funky jams, a bevy of breezy jazz waltzes, calm electro funk, indie synth pop, industrial synth metal, and more bro country than could possibly fit in the back of a pickup truck!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 21 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 21 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 21.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 21 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 21 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
Band-in-a-Box 2026 for Windows is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows is here and it is packed with major new features! There’s a new modern look, a GUI redesign to all areas of the program including toolbars, windows, workflow and more. There’s a Multi-view layout for organizing multiple windows. A standout addition is the powerful AI-Notes feature, which uses AI neural-net technology to transcribe polyphonic audio into MIDI—entire mixes or individual instruments—making it easy to study, view, and play parts from any song. And that’s just the beginning—there are over 60 new features in this exciting release.
Along with version 2026, we've released an incredible lineup of new content! There's 202 new RealTracks, brand-new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two new RealDrums Stems sets, XPro Styles PAK 10, Xtra Styles PAK 21, and much more!
Special Offers
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows and save up to 50% on most upgrade packages during our special offer—available until December 31, 2025. Visit our Band-in-a-Box® packages page to explore all available upgrade options.
2026 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK Add-ons
Our Free Bonus PAK and 49-PAK are loaded with amazing add-ons! The Free Bonus PAK is included with most Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows packages, but you can unlock even more—including 20 unreleased RealTracks—by upgrading to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49. Browse the full contents of each package and listen to demos here.
XPro and Xtra Styles PAKs Special Extended Until August 31st!
XPro & Xtra Styles PAKs Special Extended Until August 31st!
The XPro Styles PAKs and Xtra Styles PAKs special offers are now available until August 31st at 11:59pm PDT!
Ready to take your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 experience to the next level? Now’s the perfect time! Expand your style library with XPro and Xtra Styles PAKs—packed with a wide variety of genres to inspire your next musical creation.
What are XPro Styles and Xtra Styles PAKs?
XPro Styles PAKs are styles that work with any version (Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition) of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). XPro Styles PAKS 1-9 includes 900 styles!
Xtra Styles PAKs are styles that work with the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). With over 3,500 styles (and 35 MIDI styles) included in Xtra Styles PAKs 1-20, the possibilities are endless!
Get the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Listen to demos and order now! For Windows or for Mac.
Note: XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Get Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 19 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Listen to demos and order now! For Windows or for Mac.
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 19 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
Don’t miss this chance to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box setup—at a great price!
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