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As I ask this question I am thinking I may already know the answer. So I'll state what I think the answer is before the question as follows . . . The only way to tell exactly what your finished arrangement will sound like on a live performance (room and crowd acoustics with standing) is to listen to your finished product through your gigging PA.
The question . . . Is there anyone after hearing an arrangement through monitors or headphones and love it, also love that same arrangement on a live gig, or do you sometime think where were my ears man?
Your opinions, experiences and/or advice is appreciated.
Later,
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I've made tracks that didn't throw any red flags in my music room, but they sounded muddy through a PA. No doubt it was muddy in my studio too, but I was so happy with the idea of finishing the project I wasn't listening with discerning ears.
Interestingly, my MIDI tracks don't tend to sound muddy through the PA... they actually sound better, maybe because the sound is being generated in real time as though somebody was playing the notes through the synth.
The audio tracks were probably muddy because I didn't take time to isolate the frequencies. There were also probably a lot more tracks and therefore more opportunities for frequency overlap. ( Mixing is my weak link.)
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Quote:
Or the PA is muddy.
in this case, there were tracks that sounded OK and others that didn't. If it was the PA, I would have expected all the tracks to sound muddy.
That doesn't necessarily mean that the PA isn't muddy too, but the presence of some good tracks makes that my second guess
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Quote:
The question . . . Is there anyone after hearing an arrangement through monitors or headphones and love it, also love that same arrangement on a live gig, or do you sometime think where were my ears man?
Your opinions, experiences and/or advice is appreciated.
I strive to make my one mix "translatable" - such it sounds good on just about all systems that don't have inherent problems of their own to deal with.
Again I must stress the importance of having those Reference Recordings and knowing what they sound like.
Those Reference Recordings should be in the same style, genre and basic instrumentation and sound as what you will be putting through your PA.
You should have been listening those all important Reference Recordings all along, at conversational volume levels, on your home recording system whenever doing anything besides recording and mixing on your system.
Get thoroughly familiar with them. Good sounding recordings professionally mixed and mastered. Mine are all CDs now, but there was once a time when there were records as well as tapes. CDs are fine for the purpose, maybe better.
CD player connected to the two RCA inputs on your PA mixer, played back through it using the same overall EQ settings on the mains as you think sound right when you're using it live.
Walk out there, sit down, and listen to the Reference Recording.
Does it sound pretty much the same as when you "learned" it at home on the nearfields?
If it does, and your own recordings do not, then there is a problem with the mix of your home recordings. or BiaB, or whatever you are using.
If the Reference Recording does not sound the same, or close, then something is wrong in your PA setup. This could be as simple as the overall main EQ adjustment, or it may have to do with Gain Staging between your CD player, its volume control of fader on the PA, and the Main output fader on the PA.
OR, it may show something missing in the reproduction of the particular PA system. Speakers, speaker types, tweeters or horns, crossover, etc.
Get the PA to sound right with several Reference Recording CDs in a row without changing any settings - when you can do that, listen to your own mix and compare any differences that may show up between the two and govern your re-mix session accordingly.
--Mac
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Thanks all.
Mac,
I get the point re: reference recordings I guess I should have been clearer with my question i.e., a BIAB file played through cans or monitors and then played through a PA system and the sound/volume difference there in.
Let me say that because of time spend mixing my BIAB files through the same monitors and then playing them back through the same PA my ear is getting a lot better at coming up with the proper end result coming from my PA. And to get this for instance I have to set the drum volumes a bit lower on the monitors or cans than it should be as when I play the file back through my PA they sound right.
Again in my case the sure shot way to get it right the first time would be for me to mix my BIAB file using my PA and not monitors or cans. But it is just to labor intense to set up then take down everything in between gigs whenever I mess with my files in my never ending strife for perfection. Does this make any sence?
Thanks,
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Hey Danny, I do it the hard way, I do the final mix on tunes through the PA with everything set flat, I seem to get better results that way and I'm not constantly going back and forth remixing, it eliminates extra steps for me.
About the most I have to do after is sometime boost or cut the bass a little on the PA depending on the gig I'm working...doing it that way I also set the song volume level with my other tunes so I'm not constantly having to ride the channel gain on the PA.
YMMV...
Oh,by the way.....the wife just LOVES it when I set the PA up in the living room...it really make her day...
Cheers
Rusty
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Quote:
Thanks all.
Mac,
I get the point re: reference recordings I guess I should have been clearer with my question i.e., a BIAB file played through cans or monitors and then played through a PA system and the sound/volume difference there in.
Same thing applies across the board.
Gain Staging when using laptop live: Whether using Earphone Jack as Line Out to PA or using an aftermarket sound device, makes no difference to what I'm going to say, Drive That Line HARD.
That means that software playback master faders from computer sound should be turned UP. All the way if the input of the PA can take it without clipping.
Then adjust the Volume of the computer using the Hardware fader or control on your PA.
As for using the PA to mix BB, that's a recipe for mix disaster anyway.
If it sounds as good as Reference Recordings do on your mixing system, it should translate to the PA with minimal adjustment of PA needed to get it right. The EQ controls on the strips I use are set dead flat here for the laptop output from bb.
All I ever need to adjust for the bb input is the gain fader for that strip and everything out front sounds fine indeed.
--Mac
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Mac,
My issues and really not a major deal at all mostly just one or two instruments, mainly drums, sometimes after a mix with the cans or monitors tend come out a bit different on the gigs.
I might also add that I noticed it a bit more frequently after I switched from the Yamaha PA head mixer to the little soundcraft mixer feeding the Mackie Thumps.
Bottom-line is that I still have that warm fuzzy feeling that all will be well when I am kicking off that 1st tune of each gig. With that said I am pretty smooth and quick at adjusting the volume on an instrument as needed.
PS: to freeman . . . . I just explain to my wife she is lucky she does not have to pay for the show . . . and that's when the fight started!
Thanks again guys,
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Danny-
Too many variables and not enough information to help troubleshoot your problem. One thing that I found significant is that you mentioned that you really noticed the difference when you switched from the Yammy/unpowered speakers to the Soundcraft/Thumps. Big difference. Could be that you just aren't used to the Soundcraft yet. I love Soundcraft mixers - we have two of them. Then there is how you are connecting the laptop to the Soundcraft - 1/8" to 1/4" TRS? Mixing to mono or stereo?
I too have battled this disconnect between the studio sound vs. the PA sound. The only way I could arrive at a happy medium was to make mixes and play them through the PA (but then, we always have one of the PA's set up at home). Even then, when you get to the gig and the place has really reflective walls/ceilings and low freqs are bouncing around like crazy, that can really muddy your mix up. But, you already know that.
Another thing that we use (and all of the Real audio guys frown upon) is a BBE on the tracks. It can really liven up tracks, and give you some extra thump, as well as clean up the highs (albeit artificially).
By the way, your tracks sound great! I would be interested to know your signal chain - is that a Ketron playing your MIDI?
Regards,
Bob
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No issues with the soundcraft and I am connecting 1/8 from laptop to RCA into soundcraft. Then 1/4 inch to Powered Mackie Thumps. Mixing to stero.
I set up at home about two three times a year but the fact is I have so many songs in my playlist I can never give all of the them time required to master eash one.
Your mention of BBE is new to me.
Thanks for the nice comment re my tracks, as stated above my setup is pretty simple I am connecting 1/8 from laptop (with the soundcard that came with it) to RCA into soundcraft, nothing inbetween. Then 1/4 inch to Powered Mackie Thumps. Mixing to stero.
Even on the rare occission I record a sample tune for potential clients I record from my laptop via the 1/8 jack to my Roland BR 1180. Record the BIAB file, than add a track for my guitar, one for my vocal and sometime another track for backup vocals/harmonies.
Later,
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Hi Danny.
Only one thing I can add to what's been said and that's to watch the reverb.
If you're mixing in a small room with dry acoustics you're probably going to apply more reverb than you'll want in a some large venues. It's impossible to create a mix which will work for all locations, so I tend to mix these tracks dry, because I'd rather have too little reverb than too much. A dry track will always have punch, whereas a lot of reverb will just cause the sound to swim.
ROG.
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Every on of my Reference CDs is a mix that works in all locations.
--Mac
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Quote:
Every on of my Reference CDs is a mix that works in all locations.
Sorry, Mac, I don't normally disagree with you but I find it hard to believe that the same CD is going to work in both a Marquee (no reflections) and a hall with acoustics like an aircraft hanger. I've played both and I certainly didn't use the same settings.
There are some venues where nothing is ever going to sound good.
ROG.
Last edited by ROG; 01/19/13 02:33 AM.
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ROG
I have to agree with you about the reverb, my first attempts at mixing would have made Phil Spector proud, I mix with as little reverb and echo as possible now...one can always dial in a little ambiance if needed on the PA board...
You mentioned about playing in an aircraft hangar...did that...at the Farnbrough Air Show no less...Was living in the UK in the late 60's and we did a gig there in a conner of a hanger...all I remember of it was it was horrible!
Thanks for the memory jog.
And Danny...I can't really complain about my spouse she's very supportive...
She can't carry a tune in a bucket but she looks good....made her my manager/booking agent...it's working out well...
Rusty
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Quote:
You mentioned about playing in an aircraft hangar...did that...at the Farnbrough Air Show no less...Was living in the UK in the late 60's and we did a gig there in a conner of a hanger...all I remember of it was it was horrible!
Rusty
but the all-time winner of the "LIVE MUSIC SOUNDS LIKE CRAP IN THIS ROOM" award goes to:
(drumroll.....)
THE SCHOOL GYMNASIUM!
(who here hasn't played in one at some point?)
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Pat I give that two thumbs up...
It's kinda' like one of those "same thing but different" things.....and doing a gig in a room with built in slap-back echo...both sure make for a long night.
Rusty
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freeman - An actual aircraft hanger, brilliant. And those were the good days!
BTW, you weren't part of that trio with Hardy and Willis were you?
Pat - That sure is one memory I wish you hadn't brought back! AAAAGH.
ROG.
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Hi ROG....no, wasn't part of that trio, we worked over on the continent on US military bases/post most of the time, really didn't do all that much giging in the UK....was in the UK mostly for R&R....(my ex is a Brit...still a great drummer...still can't cook)
Did do a gig at Oxford in 68 and opened for John Lee Hooker, he was being backed by the Savoy Brown Blues Band at the time...when he found out I was American I kinda' became his best buddy for the moment...we had a few good chuckles...but what I remember most about it was I kept looking at his feet to make sure he was touching the floor...if you catch my drift...
Your right, it was really a great time back then, incredible memories...I got an education you can't buy... and back then all those pirate radio stations that played all that great music...(sigh)...What a mundane life I now live...
So now that I've made it to greener pastures I can't climb the fences any more...welcome to the golden years....thank God for memories.
Rusty
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So now that I've made it to greener pastures I can't climb the fences any more...
somebody needs to put that line in a country song!!
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