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The last time I did a serious study of major piano scales was some 45 years ago. I could swear that back then I was taught that almost all major scales for the right hand, black and white keys, started with the thumb.
I have recently revisited major scales and the books I read show black key scales (for right hand) starting with the second finger. Is my memory wrong or has there been a change of thinking where major scales are concerned? My original teaching came from a rather good jazz pianist, I am trying to determine if he was perhaps doing something a little unorthodox, if my memory is incorrect, or if there has been a change in thinking.
I figured MAC would probably know the answer to this, or - is there anyone else?
Woody - Sacramento
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Hi Woody, In my experience, the thumb almost never plays a black note. It's just not comfortably designed to do so. One situation where the thumb works on black keys is in playing the C# pentatonic scale which consists of only the black note (C# D# F# G# A #). In other scales, the thumb will usually play the first white note that follows a group of black notes. For example, the scale of C# major would be C# (finger 2), D# (finger 3), E# (thumb), F# (finger 2), etc. The below site gives the scales as I pretty much remember them. http://www.pianomother.com/Major_Scale.htmlRegards, Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2025
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@Noel
Yes, I remember one of the respected classical artists saying something like - "short fingers for white keys and long fingers for black ones."
Woody - Sacramento
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Hey Woodie,
Don't know if its yer memory or someone taught it wrong, but the fingerings for this were all worked out several centuries ago.
I don't need to go into all the proper fingerings, for they will be shown in any good scale book and likely the information is also available for free online in more than several places.
Suffice it to say that in the RH, there are several scales that start on the second finger. And that only makes sense if you try to plays, say a Bb Major scale starting with the thumb. The crossover to thumb from 3rd note D to 4th note Eb is impoosible when attempting to finger it same as say, C Major scale.
When practicing your scale fingerings, don't neglect the chromatic scale, up and down. That's one useful mutha, or, as an old improvisation teacher used to say, "redemption is always only a half step away..."
--Mac
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There is a fabulous method for teaching scale fingering that I've been using for nearly thirty years now. This is an shortened extract from the book where I first learnt about it. Others might find it useful. "Ernest Hutcheson (d. 1951) was a pianist, composer, author and former head of Julliard School of Music. He taught the fingering to all the major and minor scales according to four easy rules concerning the principle of where the 4th finger goes. He strongly advised against teaching scale fingerings by thumb positions or even to care where the thumb falls. There is always a three note group and a four note group someplace within each scale. Since the first, second and third fingers are used twice in each of the two groups, while the fourth is used only once, the principle becomes knowing where the fourth finger goes. THE FOUR RULES (two for each hand) RIGHT HAND 1. IN SCALES BEGINNING ON A WHITE KEY(except the scales of F) PUT THE FOURTH FINGER ON THE SEVENTH DEGREE OF THE SCALE. 2. IN SCALES BEGINNING ON A BLACK KEY (and the scales of F) PUT THE FOURTH FINGER ON Bb (or A#). WHEN THERE IS NO Bb (or A#) IN THE SCALE, THE FOURTH FINGER GOES ON THE SECOND DEGREE. LEFT HAND 1. IN SCALES BEGINNING ON A WHITE KEY (except the scales of B) PUT THE FOURTH FINGER ON THE SECOND DEGREE OF THE SCALE. 2. IN SCALES BEGINNING ON A BLACK KEY (and the scales of B) PUT THE FOURTH FINGER ON F# (or Gb). WHEN THERE IS NO F# (or Gb) IN THE SCALE, THE FOURTH FINGER GOES ON THE FOURTH DEGREE. There are only two exceptions to the above rules, both occurring in the melodic minor ascending scales. They are: RH F# melodic minor ascending LH Bb melodic minor ascending That is the end of the extract. (Whew!) It took me a bit to get the rules in my head, but now I find students pick it up much more easily than the thumb turning rules. Hope this info is helpful or at least an interesting read. 
yjoh
[i]Music...a joy for life.
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@yjoh
That is a sensational piece of advice. I wish I had been taught using that technique when I studied.
Thanks for sharing.
Regards, Trevor
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Professional & Windows 11, Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors
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Glad to share it Trevor, it works brilliantly. It was in a book on piano improvisation and I'm so pleased I bought it. Used it ever since.
All the best!
yjoh
[i]Music...a joy for life.
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Rule of thumb......?
Last edited by Keith from Oz; 01/22/13 06:47 PM.
Cheers,
Keith
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That truly is another way to view scales, particularly so for the wanting improviser, so many get drilled into the "starting on the 1" linearity only to find that they must relearn somewhat to be able to grab scale lines from the inside and not be stuck suddenly having run out of fingers or the like.
It also supports my prevailing theory that, in music, there are many different ways to perceive the same event, situation, theory, etc. - and though different, each way may prove to be quite valid.
An example of that is all of the piano students who were taught to curl the hands when playing, the old "classic" method, then along came Flat-Handed Vladimir Horowitz, who ran rings around most of the others and also had his own identifiable touch when playing the exact same pieces. Faster. With more brilliance. With interpretation. I actually had a piano teacher, when I pointed out Horowitz's hand positioning after viewing him perform on TV, tell me some malarky about how that might be good for Horowitz, but he was somehow much greater than the whole, or something. I decided not to listen to that teacher. That decision didn't turn me into Horowitz, but it did help me improve on a few issues.
--Mac
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Have just finished watching a great Serena Williams/Sloane Stephens tennis match. Fabulous!! Back to the topic....So very true Mac...many different ways to tackle musical issues. Every student is different and needs a different approach, so the more ideas and methods we have of explaining things the better. I think every ones hand is different and shouldn't be made to conform to a one particular shape. Some pieces need curled fingers for sparkle and clarity but with a lot of the romantic period pieces, the fingers are straighter. Different approaches again. The main thing in the end, is relaxation (sadly overlooked quite a bit I've found), no physical pain and a musical result. Music should be fun! Good thread!
yjoh
[i]Music...a joy for life.
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So true.
One thing that really helped change my hand shape and approach on the piano was when I added the Hammond Organ. Had to learn that the organ is not touch sensitive. Also had to learn that the better way to play fast lines on the organ keyboard involved keeping the top of the hand rather flat in shape, rather than curling fingers to be ready to articulate velocities. That, BTW is the awful sign of a pianist who just encontered the organ. She's up there pounding away -- but the dynamics are static. Takes some practice to be able to use that Expression Pedal while playing a line.
The old tried and true pipe organist's method of placing a largish coin on top of each hand while practicing the organ scales and runs without letting those coins drop from outlandish hand curling and pounding can really go a long way towards getting through that period of adjustment.
Then, I found that I had to be thinking hard about which was which when having to play gigs where both the Piano and Organ were the issue. After awhile, though, like all things involved with the manipulation of our various instruments, repetition, the embarrassment of bad mistakes, all goes towards the place where something like this becomes a matter of rote. Today, it is the sound of the instrument that leads me to play it one way or the other. It is also the big reason that I don't like to play organ patches on weighted MIDI piano keyboards.
--Mac
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It was good to read your post on the finger action needed for the organ. I don't play or teach the organ and piano students often ask if playing an organ is the same as playing the piano.
I've always said no they use different techniques, explaining (with my limited knowledge of organ techniques) that organ playing needs a sliding action whereas piano playing is a downward weight action.
Thanks Mac, a great help from someone who plays both.
yjoh
[i]Music...a joy for life.
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Here’s just a small sampling of what you can look forward to in XPro Styles PAK 10: Soft indie folk worship songs, bumpin’ country boogies, gospel praise breaks, hard rockin’ pop, funky disco grooves, smooth Latin jazz pop, bossa nova fusion, western swing, alternative hip-hop, cool country funk, and much more!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
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XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
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Rejoice, one and all, for Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box® is here! We’re serving up 200 brand spankin’ new styles to delight your musical taste buds! The first three courses are the classics you’ve come to know and love, including offerings from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, but, not to be outdone, this year’s fourth course is bro country! A wide ranging genre, you can find everything from hip-hop, uptempo outlaw country, hard hitting rock, funk, and even electronica, all with that familiar bro country flair. The dinner bell has been rung, pickup up Xtra Styles PAK 21 today!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Energetic folk rock, raucous train beats, fast country boogies, acid jazz grooves, laid-back funky jams, a bevy of breezy jazz waltzes, calm electro funk, indie synth pop, industrial synth metal, and more bro country than could possibly fit in the back of a pickup truck!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 21 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 21 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 21.
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Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 21 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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