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Yesterday me and my son was surfing a little on the net.
We come across a piano plugin that claim to be the best free piano plugin on the net.
I loaded it down and listen to it two or three times and it did not sound to bad to me, but it would be interesting to know your upinion.
It is called: mda piano
Best regards
Tono
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Hard to say which plugin is the best. It depends from person to person. In fact there are a lot of piano plugins, so you might want to try and compare for yourself, that way you will be able to define the "best plugin" for yourself. I mean who decides it is the best? What one thinks of the best, someone else probably think another one is.
You could try e.g. "Le Piano" or "4front piano module 1.0" just to name two of those freebies, which I also like a lot.
I'll be back...
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The 4front piano module doesn't seem to be free. No experience with mda piano here; yet when hunting for a decent piano module make sure to check out Pianoteq. The company creating the Pianoteq module will soon be releasing a so called 'professional' version, where you may even tweak and tune each and every single string and note - amazing.
Martin
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Tono, for the best 'Free' piano plugin, MDA piano really doesn't sound all that good. You would be much better off using a soundfont player and one of the free soundfonts for pianos. A freeware soundfont player is the sfz player that now is available from Cakewalk. http://www.project5.com/products/instruments/sfz_player/default.aspThen you will need to download a good piano soundfont. I like to use two different piano soundfonts. I like Warren Trachtman's free soundfont which is a Steinway sampled in stereo, but at quite a distance from the piano, so it has an almost mono, non-panned sound. That soundfont is available here: http://www.pianosounds.com/freesoundfont.htmIt is a 25 MB download. Now, if you prefer a more panned soundfont for your piano, then the Akai Splendid soundfont is what you should download. It's something like 78 MB, and when I downloaded it, I had to download 3 or 4 different .zip files. It's available here: http://www.soundcreationsinc.com/tech/splendid/splendid.htmlWith that one, you will also need the SFPACK software which is also available linked at the above site. You will find these much more satisfactory than MDA piano. I guarantee that. -Scott
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Citaat:
The 4front piano module doesn't seem to be free.
You are talking about the full version. The one I am talking about is this one:
4front piano module download
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Citaat:
Now, if you prefer a more panned soundfont for your piano, then the Akai Splendid soundfont is what you should download. It's something like 78 MB, and when I downloaded it, I had to download 3 or 4 different .zip files. It's available here:
http://www.soundcreationsinc.com/tech/splendid/splendid.html-Scott
That link works, but the files on that page don't
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Quote:
Quote:
Now, if you prefer a more panned soundfont for your piano, then the Akai Splendid soundfont is what you should download. It's something like 78 MB, and when I downloaded it, I had to download 3 or 4 different .zip files. It's available here:
http://www.soundcreationsinc.com/tech/splendid/splendid.html-Scott
That link works, but the files on that page don't
Sorry about that. Here's a different link on their page that does have the file in sfark format. http://www.soundcreationsinc.com/tech/splendid/grand._collection.html
Follow that link to the FREE 72 MB soundfont.
-Scott
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I'm not here to pour cold water on anyone's expectations, but "free" and "best" aren't terms that I often use together, particularly with pianos.
I've been playing pianos since 1946, and if I've learned nothing else (some would argue I haven't ever learned anything), it's that there is no one "best" piano - even if you are referring to the world's top concert grands. They are all excellent, but can have quite different sounds - even amongst the same models from the same builder.
Anyone that is serious about piano (that's the only sound I use, so perhaps I'm serious) can DL the trial for Pianoteq - the latest version was quite a surprise to me.
Pianoteq has some quite valuable features: 1) it's very playable live in real time, 2) it's very configurable so that many variations can be achieved with the sound, 3) it takes very little space on a hard drive (this is compared to samples). A quick check with Start/Control Panel/Add Remove Programs, indicates that on my HDD, it's installed size is 22.71 MB.
Glenn
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That is a part of my point Glen.
Like you say Every acousic instrument sound a little different even if they are from the same model produced the same shop.
I do not have the economy at the time to buy a piano plugin, so I guess I have to go for the second best.
The only thing I am looking for at the moment is a decent piano that have a decent acoustic sound.
You obviousely have long experience with pianos, so it would be nice if you (or other pianists out there) could take the time to try mda piano out
The pianos I allready have do a desent job (I think) when they are mixed together with the other instruments, but when I bring them up front in a solo part they do not sound that realistic.
The sound that I am looking for is what I will call the Floyd Cramer sound. (Crisp and Bright I think)
Best regard
Tono
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Citaat:
I'm not here to pour cold water on anyone's expectations, but "free" and "best" aren't terms that I often use together, particularly with pianos
Errr, I guess that is another interpretation. Maybe you should try to read it like: The best among the free...
I mean, if we want the best, most of us should quit right now, since making music would not be possible with the budgets most will be able to spend. The best mixing console, recording device, microphones, studioroom, instruments...
Looking at that in this way would make any instrumentalist react on plugins the same way. There is until now not one affordable solution if allready there is a solution, that represents their instruments in a 100% realistic and therefore "a best" way. All plugins I ever had come across are an approximation of the real thing. Even when using samples it is a very hard thing to represent the real playing of an instrument. But then again, that is the way we work nowadays, the digital domain delivers all those possibilities and we learn to accept the details that might be missing using cheaper mics or mixing consoles or plugins. Free is often not even that bad in this way. I bet there are even songs that are (partly) created from free stuff and still have potential in being a hit. We once had the analogue circuit, and right after computers took over, the analogue fans (and yes, I was and still am one of them) would say it is not the same. And yes, eventhough it isn't, I adapted to it, simply because that is how things are done nowadays. In the end I think it should always be about the music and less about the characteristics of an instrument, since a synth is also an instrument. If I listen to a small transistor radio, I still enjoy the music, even if the sound is a bit thin... And I could go on with these comparissons forever. Well anyway, I think you can get my point here...
I'll be back...
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The Grand Piano, patch 001 included with the Coyote Forte, IS the Trachtman Grand Piano Soundfont.
So you may already have it.
--Mac
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Quote:
That is a part of my point Glenn.
The only thing I am looking for at the moment is a decent piano that have a decent acoustic sound.
The pianos I already have do a decent job (I think) when they are mixed together with the other instruments, but when I bring them up front in a solo part they do not sound that realistic.
Best regard
Tono
Tono - you've nailed the problem - in a mix, many plug-ins are fine, but for a solo part, and particularly for piano with no other instruments, things get a bit more difficult.
This is where I'm coming from - I play one instrument, and I rarely even add drums or bass to it. It has to carry the melody, harmony (and usually the rhythym) lines. While I personally play "pop" piano, I listen to a lot of Chopin and Debussey (midi files from the net), and convert the midi files to wave files and then to CD's for listening - a plug-in would simply not work.
In the past 19 years, I've had three digital pianos. I am able to keep using the third one, because I no longer use the onboard piano sound. It just wasn't realistic enough.
I also understand that not everyone has the need to be as critical with the piano sound (I'm not as critical about acoustic bass sound as a bass player would be), and there may be some plug-ins that will do the job within the financial restrictions that we all face.
Glenn
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Thank you for your reply Glen. Of course you allready figured out that I am not a pianist at all, so there are some tecnichal questions that I would like to ask you and other pianoplayers out there.
When I listen to for example Floyd Cramer, every tone stands out clear and crisp. Even when though the tune can be at a wery fast tempo. I guess this have something to do with operating the "mechanics" in the Piano ( Pedals).
If the notes have a long sustain, I guess the whole melody wile take a "soupy" quality.
While If the song is slow, every tone can "stay" longer.
Could someone tell me what controls to reach for to get a clear good tone in a fast melody contra a slow one.
And how is a piano normally panned. in a mix it is maybe mono, but do they often shift to stereo when the piano go from
comping to a solo part.?
Best regards
Tono
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Regarding panning, simply listen to some of your favorite recordings of piano to get a feeling for panning. One of my favorite piano recordings is Horowitz' return to Moscow. Not very much panning in that recording whatsoever. There's even lots of room noise and so forth. But the joy in his playing is evident.
Regarding 'what controls to grab for': Do you play piano? If not, it will be very difficult to verbally describe how to work the pedals.
In fact, Glen Kolot has posted here at least once in the past about how most piano software doesn't respond to continuous pedal information that his controller keyboard will actually output.
I believe the Pianoteq software does to that. Most of our controllers have a simple on/off switch for the sustain pedal. Glen's outputs at least 128 discrete values versus just the two on/off positions.
So, back to the original question: the best "FREE" plugin, in my opinion, is the sfz plugin with a couple of good piano soundfonts.
Mac replied that the Coyote has the Trachtman soundfont. Well Trachtman has several different soundfonts of various quality. It's possible the Coyote has an even better font than the one I pointed to several posts above. I kind of doubt it because of RAM issues, but if you have the Coyote plugin, you might be all set anyways. The Trachtman font I referred to has a 'mono' like quality due to where I believe he set his microphones when he recorded his samples.
You will find any of them to be vastly superior to the MDA piano plugin. I promise you that. It is worth the download time to give it a shot.
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I don't know how to "multi-quote" on this forum in order to reply to both Tono and Scott, so I'll just add what little I can.
A few years ago, I recorded a song live on the piano, played it back in Powertracks using the same piano to generate the sound. It sounded OK when played this way. Last night I loaded the same song into Pianoteq, and in one spot, the notes were cut off too short.
I attempted to fix it in Powertracks, and to be honest, I had limited success. It's really difficult to put the Pedal Controls in afterward and to get the note lengths correct.
This points out a difficulty in playing a piano piece with software on which it was not created in the first place - different programs interpret the midi commands slightly differently (of course different acoustic pianos react differently too).
Tono:
As Scott said, I don't know how I could describe the process to you if I can't make it work quite right myself all the time.
How do you make every tone clear and crisp? I believe it has a lot to do with whatever generates the sound - and of course it's obvious how it was recorded makes a big difference. My mother was a piano teacher, and I well recall beginners when they first tried to use the damper pedal - they didn't yet understand when to release the pedal, so when their fingers changed the notes (harmony), they achieved some very muddy sounds. After sixty plus years, I still make mistakes with this - the timing is absolutely critical. We're talking very small fractions of a second.
When playing very fast pieces with many notes, many or most pianists won't use the damper pedal because the notes are so close together and sustain isn't needed or wanted - otherwise the result is "soup" as you say. You are correct about slower pieces - the damper pedal is essential. Unlike horns, pianos don't have much control over how long a note sounds. This can be an advantage too.
As for "what controls to reach for", I think a recording made by a good pianist is required. Changing controls after the fact could be futile (useless?). There is an old expression in English - "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear".
Can't help you with panning as Pianoteq can use up to five microphones or one set of headphones to adjust the width of the sound. I have no experience at all with soundfonts.
Scott:
Pianoteq responds to the full midi range of 128 (zero to 127, where zero is no sound of course). It also responds very well to velocity - in fact the Dynamics value can be adjusted - so if one isn't very expressive while playing the Dynamics can be turned up, and vice versa. The biggest "problem" with Pianoteq, is that it requires some good knowledge about the physics of the piano, and how various parameters affect the sound.
There are at least 17 basic adjustments to the physics of the piano (hammer hardness, string length, resonance, unison width, etc), plus another 11 to the sound with equalizers and velocity response - and that's before one has selected the piano type, and has adjusted the microphones and/or headphones. It's not for the faint of heart or those with limited piano knowledge. The person that I know personally that understands it best is a friend of mine, and he is both a piano technician and a very good pianist.
True about some software - the EMU software (Emulator X) doesn't know what to do with multiple values of Pedal Control, so I gave up on it and soundfonts.
Glenn
Last edited by Glenn Kolot; 04/14/09 11:20 PM.
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Thanks to you all.
Your answer gives me a lot to work with Glen. I think I stay with the mda piano for a while, and see how close I can come with it.
In mda piano I have some control over the tone. Maybe pianoteg has more controls, but since I am not a pianoplayer at all, I am afraid that there are to many controls, so the result will be a real mess if I start to try them out. All of the answers in this thread was of great value of course, since they made it more easy to figure out what to go for.
But it is always nice to have adwice from one that is spesialist on the instrument that I try to replicate, it make it more easy to zoom in on the real thing, and also stay clear of the biggest pitfalls.
Best regards
Tono
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Tono,
The MDA piano sounds quite bad in comparison to even a very basic soundfont with sfz.
I'm serious. I have both, and have had both for many years. Some of the MDA plugins are really very good (the leslie emulation and multi-band distortion are real gems), but the piano is not one of them.
You should have the sfz player from Cakewalk for any other number of sounds as well. There is a very nice small-sized orchestral soundfont called 'squidfont' which has some rather nice strings in it.
Drumkits are also widely available for soundfonts to use in sfz.
I would do a simple side-to-side playback of MDA piano versus sfz with the Warren Trachtman soundfont for you, but my music setup is half here in Michigan, and half at my new home in Colorado.
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Quote:
The biggest "problem" with Pianoteq, is that it requires some good knowledge about the physics of the piano, and how various parameters affect the sound.
Iff a customer is inclined to make use of all the magnificent options Pianoteq provides. Otherwise it's perfectly alright to stick with great shipped presets and enjoy playing from the first key stroke on - which of course is already implied with your quotation marks.
Martin
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I am greatful for your adwices Rockstar_not,and I will try out sfz and "squidfont". in the near future. (I have printed out the most of the adwises on this thread) but for the moment I must take one at the time. (It is starting to be a little to confusing for this old head, so I have to sort out things a bit) But, hopefully I will end up with something useful. But like I said your aswices is always welcome.
Best regards
Tono
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Martin: When was the last time you met a piano player that was satisfied with a piano sound that could be adjusted? I have developed about thirty variations for three original presets, and the number will likely grow. Judging by the talk on the Pianoteq forum, I don't have enough. Glenn 
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